Crucible of Worlds is my Commander

[TheGildedGoose]

Since fetchables are such a big deal in this deck, I actually prefer Woodland Chasm/Haunted Mire to untapped colored sources like Command Tower. I was hoping I could get away with just the three good ones, especially with the ungodly number of fetch lands, but I still might need to add a few more.

Underground Mortuary is your go-to turn 1 fetch almost all of the time if possible, but those two are excellent targets as well. Even with the green lean, the deck is pretty pip intensive, so I worry that you may run into fixing issues in the midgame like I do occasionally with Slogurk, the Overslime. Don't be turned off too much by them entering tapped since you don't have a ton of early game plays that don't set up land drops.

Honestly, I'm considering cutting Demolition Field as well, seeing as how I'm running Assassin's Trophy and Beast Within.

I support this decision. With Crucibles, especially one in the command zone, it's just too tempting to start running people out of meaningful nonbasics. Much worse with Strip Mine, but if you're going to run land-based land destruction go ham with Dust Bowl. No half measures.

Pretty much, it's a land that upgrades itself into a Sol Ring after a few turns. It's also a back-up win-condition if Field of the Dead is MIA. A bit slower, but honestly, if you get saga and a couple land-clones pumping, it's probably even more powerful than Field of the Dead.

(Also, I haven't posted my most recent version of the deck, but I added Sensei's Divining Top which is a 4th tutor target AND ensures that even once you've grabbed all your tutor targets, you can draw a card off of top, then immediately tutor it back into play).

Also, turn 1 Urza's Saga, turn 2 green-producing land, turn 3 float a colorless mana off of saga, grab Sol Ring, play a second Green-producing land is a very clean way to ramp into a turn 3 Zask, Skittering Swarmlord.

It's not nearly as elegant as Field of the Dead, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

I'm a little cold on Saga here too without maybe a handful more targets like Zuran Orb and maybe Skullclamp. I get that it's an inevitability sort of card but it just seems glacially slow in that role. If the tutoring aspect is weak, and the token creation aspect is weak, I don't think combining the two is going to elevate it much. You're already running plenty of tutors, so while having a limited one on a land is nice I think it's kind of marginal. I kind of hate the card at any rate, so maybe I'm just biased.

Speaking of tutors, I know the deck isn't all that black heavy and your main source of Swamps is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but it would be too tempting for me to not run Cabal Coffers if I'm running so many tutors.

I think Mirrex could do some work if you wanted another tokenland, but maybe like me you also have an aversion to using poison counters.

Dark Depths? Marit Lage is much more balanced in this format, but maybe it's borderline if you can do it every turn. I know you're also kind of a stickler for "fair" Magic, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Dunadain]

Underground Mortuary is your go-to turn 1 fetch almost all of the time if possible, but those two are excellent targets as well. Even with the green lean, the deck is pretty pip intensive, so I worry that you may run into fixing issues in the midgame like I do occasionally with Slogurk, the Overslime. Don't be turned off too much by them entering tapped since you don't have a ton of early game plays that don't set up land drops.

Aye, I'm thinking one more dual makes sense.

I'm a little cold on Saga here too without maybe a handful more targets like Zuran Orb and maybe Skullclamp. I get that it's an inevitability sort of card but it just seems glacially slow in that role. If the tutoring aspect is weak, and the token creation aspect is weak, I don't think combining the two is going to elevate it much. You're already running plenty of tutors, so while having a limited one on a land is nice I think it's kind of marginal. I kind of hate the card at any rate, so maybe I'm just biased.

Idk, I think the tutor is medium/strong and the token production is strong. Between Sensei's Divining Top and Sol Ring their is always a relevant artifact to put into play, and I have a lot of experience with Crucible of Worlds + Urza's Saga. It ends games.

The deck runs 9 artifacts as well, plus Gingerbread Cabin so the constructs should start out at at 2/2 or more and only get bigger.

Speaking of tutors, I know the deck isn't all that black heavy and your main source of Swamps is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but it would be too tempting for me to not run Cabal Coffers if I'm running so many tutors.

Yeah, I've been really thinking about that one.

hm.... I'm an extremely risk-averse player, so I don't like the idea of a dead land without Urborg, but the power is undeniably there. Especially when I'm running Torment of Hailfire.

I think Mirrex could do some work if you wanted another tokenland, but maybe like me you also have an aversion to using poison counters.

Nah, I am a staunch infect supporter, nothing more fair than attacking your opponents with %$#% creatures. Heck, you can't even kill steal, you got to kill the player all on your own. (proliferation is another matter however).

However, surely Urza's Saga constructs are superior to the mites right? the constructs should trivially become 4/4s or bigger once I'm actually pushing for a win, they cost one less to make (though they do require a land drop once every 3 turns), and they can block!

Dark Depths? Marit Lage is much more balanced in this format, but maybe it's borderline if you can do it every turn. I know you're also kind of a stickler for "fair" Magic, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I also think Dark Depths is totally fair in EDH. If anything it's Medium/Bad. It's another card I've tossed around in my head.

Again, my decks tend to be very risk averse, and Dark Depths doesn't do anything unless you have Thespian's Stage/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out. I guess the two questions you need to ask are:

does the deck want another land-based win condition?

OR

Is Dark Depths a more effective win condition than Urza's Saga or Field of the Dead?


and I think the answer is no to both of them.

[TheGildedGoose]

Idk, I think the tutor is medium/strong and the token production is strong. Between Sensei's Divining Top and Sol Ring their is always a relevant artifact to put into play, and I have a lot of experience with Crucible of Worlds + Urza's Saga. It ends games.

The deck runs 9 artifacts as well, plus Gingerbread Cabin so the constructs should start out at at 2/2 or more and only get bigger.

I don't play competitively anymore but I do get a hankering for Legacy every now and then and watch games on YouTube and I despise that card, even though before Sheoldred, the Apocalypse and Orcish Bowmasters it almost single-handedly propped up mono-black strategies.

I guess it's not as slow as I was expecting.

hm.... I'm an extremely risk-averse player, so I don't like the idea of a dead land without Urborg, but the power is undeniably there. Especially when I'm running Torment of Hailfire.

As another risk-averse player, I get you, but Oops! Crop Rotation into Coffers or Urborg in the mid to late game is going to be a massive power swing.

[Dunadain]

I guess it's not as slow as I was expecting.

I mean, slow is relative. It's about as slow as Field of the Dead. Which is too say, relatively slow, but who cares if there's not a lot your opponents can do to stop you anyways.

Regarding Cabal Coffers I think you're right.

The deck is running Torment of Hailfire because I wanted at least one non-combat option, should i need it (Constant Mists locks, Glacial Chasm, The One Ring, Ghostly Prison, etc.). However, I don't run any mana doublers, so while the deck ramps hard, it probably tops out around 20 mana, which should be enough for Torment of Hailfire most of the time, but I could see a token deck or Life-gain deck surviving. Admission, it would probably soften then up enough that I could pretty easily finish them off, but a single, easily tutorable mana doubler should guarantee that torment is always lethal.

The alternative would be Treasure Vault, which has a lower floor (always taps for mana) and is more on-theme, but is MUCH less powerful.

[Dunadain]

Played my second game and lost to Najeela, the Blade-Blossom on turn 4

[Dunadain]

I got another game in and won.

One player was playing a pretty dedicated Azorious control deck. He kept the entire table more or less in check, and the inevitability of Field of the Dead took over.

I'm pretty sure I'm running way too many Exploration effects. Just hitting your land drop every turn is very strong in commander, and if you're making 2 land drops everyturn, you kind of have all the ramp you need.

In that game I had 3 exploration effects on board and stripped every fetchable out of my deck in just a few turns. Then i stood around awkwardly twiddling my thumbs. I top-decked Torment of Hailfire and cast it, but it got countered, then another turn or two later I finally top deck Roadside Reliquary and spend the rest of the game drawing 3 cards a turn.

So, ranking the exploration effects, we have:

The Greats:

Azusa, Lost but Seeking: two explores in one, and easily tutorable.

Exploration: The OG, dirt cheap and doesn't get swept up in board wipes.

The Good:

Oracle of Mul Daya: Exploration that also draws cards. The effect is particularly potent in this deck since we have a lot of shiffle effects.

Case of the Locked Hothouse: similar to Oracle, but can't immediately play a card off the top when played.

The Gitrog Monster: arguably not technically an exploration effect since he forces you to sac the extra land he gives you, maybe he should belong in the "value category." At any rate, I've yet to play him in the deck, but he can draw a lot of cards. Not to mention he's got a great body.

The Dubious

Druid Class: 5 mana for an exploration is a terrible rate, but the lifegain isn't completely meaningless.

Dryad of the Ilysian Grove: The fixing is nice but it's difficult not to compare this to Azusa, Lost but Seeking.

Sword of Forge and Frontier: Difficult to evaluate, I think it's better than everything else in this category, but it's hard to say.

Wayward Swordtooth: it's like Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, but it doesn't fix your mana and sometimes it can't even block! Admittedly, it's a 5/5 instead of a 2/4. But our commander is also a 5/5, and by the time we have the city's blessing, I imagine Zask will be out. Almost put this in "bad" but 3 MV is pretty nice.

The Bad

Undergrowth Recon: I like that this card can function as a poor man's Crucible of Worlds in a pinch, but we have a Crucible of Worlds in the command zone, get this poser out of here.



So, definitely cutting Undergrowth Recon and Wayward Swordtooth. Probably cutting Druid Class and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove.

This will make an early game exploration less guaranteed. But I think that's ok. Early game, making a single land drop every turn is fine. I really only want multiple land drops once I have something like Roadside Reliquary or Field of the Dead up.

[Mookie]

In that game I had 3 exploration effects on board and stripped every fetchable out of my deck in just a few turns. Then i stood around awkwardly twiddling my thumbs.

Welcome to the classic ramp deck problem - sometimes you draw all your ramp and no payoffs, and sometimes you draw all your topend and no acceleration. It's the main reason why I love Tasigur, the Golden Fang in the command zone as a mana sink.

You could theoretically dump mana into Zask, Skittering Swarmlord's activated ability as a plan 'C' in case of flood, although that's somewhat dubious without a source of evasion. More realistically, I would consider running another utility land or two - Castle Locthwain, War Room, Rogue's Passage, and Barad-dûr are all options, as are manlands like Lair of the Hydra and Restless Cottage. I'm not entirely convinced you actually need all 13 fetches, given that you only ever need a single one, maaaybe two if it only fetches one of your land types.

Alternatively, you could just run more card draw / value cards, since you're somewhat light on them if you don't hit Nurturing Peatland or another cycling land. There's usually a sweet spot where the number of times you want more mana is roughly equal to the number of times you have too much mana, and it requires some testing to figure out where that is.

[Artaud]

I think you're too light on draw effects. In fact the only ones you use are land-based which means you have to choose between ramping and drawing which slows you down. Believe me - I tried those in Azusa and ended up removing all but War Room. Adding something as simple as Horn of Greed and/or Nissa, Vital Force gives momentum for "landfall" decks and black has a lot of draw effects to choose from.

As for wincons where is Avenger of Zendikar? You may also try Ashaya, Soul of the Wild with Quirion Ranger which are bonkers with Scute Swarm and Field of the Dead. Last but not least - where is your Lotus Cobra?

As for other stuff I would get rid of half "Value" and "Removal" cards to insert more draw and real value stuff (with legs).

[Dunadain]

Welcome to the classic ramp deck problem - sometimes you draw all your ramp and no payoffs, and sometimes you draw all your topend and no acceleration. It's the main reason why I love Tasigur, the Golden Fang in the command zone as a mana sink.

Yeah, and that's the thing, this deck doesn't even need to ramp that hard, the deck's average CMC is 1.67, there are 3 spells in the entire deck that need more than 5 mana. So making your land drop every turn is sufficient until the late game anyways.

You could theoretically dump mana into Zask, Skittering Swarmlord's activated ability as a plan 'C' in case of flood, although that's somewhat dubious without a source of evasion. More realistically, I would consider running another utility land or two - Castle Locthwain, War Room, Rogue's Passage, and Barad-dûr are all options, as are manlands like Lair of the Hydra and Restless Cottage. I'm not entirely convinced you actually need all 13 fetches, given that you only ever need a single one, maaaybe two if it only fetches one of your land types.

I really think this list is already towing the line of how many tech lands a responsible deck can run,

13 fetches isn't as many as you think it is. I still have games where I don't find a fetch land in the early game. I suppose I could cut the number and mulligan more aggressively for them, but I'd rather keep good hands and trust the deck to find me one eventually.

Alternatively, you could just run more card draw / value cards, since you're somewhat light on them if you don't hit Nurturing Peatland or another cycling land. There's usually a sweet spot where the number of times you want more mana is roughly equal to the number of times you have too much mana, and it requires some testing to figure out where that is.

Well, you got to remember I'm also running 11 tutors, so I'm actually running a lot more card draw engines then it looks at first blush. I'd like to find room for Night's Whisper though.

I think you're too light on draw effects. In fact the only ones you use are land-based

This confuses me.
Case of the Locked Hothouse, Oracle of Mul Daya, Sword of Forge and Frontier, The Gitrog Monster, Sylvan Library and Tireless Tracker are all non-land card draw. Then I have 11 tutors to find card draw, and I have a bunch of Card Quality cards that don't directly provide CA, but can help me find cards that do.

which means you have to choose between ramping and drawing which slows you down. Believe me - I tried those in Azusa and ended up removing all but War Room. Adding something as simple as Horn of Greed and/or Nissa, Vital Force gives momentum for "landfall" decks and black has a lot of draw effects to choose from.

I don't think Azusa is a good comparison. Azusa is a turbo ramp deck where you ramp as hard as you can and hope to slam some fatties that overpower your opponents. This deck is more about taking it slow, running a hefty removal/wipe suite to control the board, and eventually taking over with Field of the Dead. Again, the deck doesn't actually run that many payoffs for big mana. If I have to choose between ramping and drawing cards, it's not a hard decision, I'm drawing the cards (well, unless I already have a full grip).

As for wincons where is Avenger of Zendikar? You may also try Ashaya, Soul of the Wild with Quirion Ranger which are bonkers with Scute Swarm and Field of the Dead. Last but not least - where is your Lotus Cobra?

Avenger of Zendikar was in the first draft but got cut. What is Avenger of Zendikar doing in this list? We have a much more resilient win condition in Field of the Dead and Urza's Saga, We have a much faster AND resilient win condition in Scute Swarm, we have two ways to quickly convert a respectable board state into a lethal swing in Craterhoof Behemoth and Finale of Devastation, and we have a win condition that sidesteps the board in Torment of Hailfire.

The deck runs plenty of tutors, so if all a card does is try to win the game, it's got to either attack from a different angle, or do it better than one of the current win-conditions.

Also, I am running Lotus Cobra =) I suppose I could run a second one but I'm not a huge fan of cobra in general.

As for other stuff I would get rid of half "Value" and "Removal" cards to insert more draw and real value stuff (with legs).

I could entertain swapping the more conditional value engines, but that's kind of the point of the deck.

Cutting the removal suite in half seems insane though, I'm in golgari, I get the best removal in the game, and my wincondition provides a high level of inevitability, provided I stay alive long enough, so that removal is put to good use.

[GuJiaXian]

What about Zuran Orb ? That's another powerhouse in my Hazezon, Shaper of Sand deck. Granted, I've deliberately gone for a janky Dune-themed build (sand warriors = Fremen, doncha know).

[Dunadain]

What about Zuran Orb ? That's another powerhouse in my Hazezon, Shaper of Sand deck. Granted, I've deliberately gone for a janky Dune-themed build (sand warriors = Fremen, doncha know).

To be honest, the only reason it isn't already in is because I've been struggling to pick between Dark Heart of the Wood and Zuran Orb.

Ultimately, I think Zuran Orb is better, it can be tutored off of Urza's Saga, and every once in a while you'll find plays like sacrifice Field of the Dead, play Echoing Deeps copying FOD, then replay FOD.

The 1 extra life isn't totally irrelevant though.

Probably going to replace Currency Converter with Zuran Orb, cycling away lands just never felt worth the mana.

[Dunadain]

Been a lot of spicy spoilers for Zask over the past month or so. Combine that with the fact that the deck is pretty fun and I've decided to make it one of my permanent decks. Actively working on V3.0 but the big things I'm thinking about are:

The previously mentioned Zuran Orb.

Omenpath Journey: Is this too slow?

Crystal Vein: I initially overlooked since it seemed more cute then good. While I still feel like it's relatively low impact, I have noticed it's not too uncommon for me to strip all or most of my basics out of my deck, then simply replaying Riveteers Overlook while failing to find to trigger my landfall effects and enjoy a bit of lifegain. Which isn't exactly a bad thing, but if I am frequently finding myself in these situations, maybe it would be nice to have this to get something with a bit more impact than 1 life out of it.

Emergence Zone: Just a cool tech card, that I haven't been able to find room for, deck is already really colorless land heavy.

HELIOS One: kind of a variation of Blast Zone I guess? Very slow though, and while it can hit tokens, being only one target against tokens really stinks.

Lotus Field: If you think about it, it's kind of like a land that draws two cards on ETB (except those cards are always lands). Lotus Vale is also an option, but I'd rather not get blown out by Ghost Quarter.

Mirrorpool: Really neat in this deck, but the deck doesn't have many spells I'm happy to copy, and most of the good creatures are legendary.

Cuts are, of course, much harder than additions as always, but I'm pretty sure Mouth of Ronom can go, it looks like it would be great, but I don't think I've ever needed it.

[Dunadain]

So I've been thinking a lot about the implications of Urza's Cave and I'm pretty sure it's going to make a huge difference to how the deck functions, the fact that one land can be a repeatable tutor for any other land means that Cave will almost certainly be the primary target for any other tutors in the deck, and once we have cave online, we don't really need any more tutors.

Obviously we still need tutors to find Cave in the first place, but I think we can probably trim the numbers a bit.

At the very least Wight of the Reliquary, while neat, probably isn't worthwhile in light of cave being the new primary engine for the deck.

[Mookie]

Urza's Cave does seem like a solid inclusion, but I will note that using it costs an effective four mana, plus your land drop. Worth it? Probably, but I wouldn't consider it to be free - that's a pretty hefty tempo cost. It does seem more interesting if you're running Blossoming Tortoise or Sunken Citadel though.