Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger Tokens

[WizardMN]

Akim is higher on the curve and the activated ability takes a lot of mana, but those are acceptable if the card is viewed as a curve topper or game ender. And, of course, my build has no creatures

But, ignoring all that I think the main issue is that a 1/1 with double strike isn't that great. So, you would really need to surround it by other cards to get the power of those tokens up. And, unfortunately, I don't see a lot in your list. Crusade, Ascendancy, and Valor. You know your deck better than I do, and this card likely makes triggering each of them twice in one turn trivial, but I think you need at least one of those cards on the field to make this work. If you have that, I think you are right that this could be a reasonable game ending card.

Or, if you are able to generate a huge army of tokens most games, swinging with 30 1/1 Double Strike tokens is pretty devastating.

[MeowZeDung]

But, ignoring all that I think the main issue is that a 1/1 with double strike isn't that great. So, you would really need to surround it by other cards to get the power of those tokens up. And, unfortunately, I don't see a lot in your list. Crusade, Ascendancy, and Valor. You know your deck better than I do, and this card likely makes triggering each of them twice in one turn trivial, but I think you need at least one of those cards on the field to make this work. If you have that, I think you are right that this could be a reasonable game ending card.

Or, if you are able to generate a huge army of tokens most games, swinging with 30 1/1 Double Strike tokens is pretty devastating.

My thoughts pretty much exactly. It's not uncommon for me to swing with 15-30 tokens in the late game, so the double strike even with 1/1 tokens could seal the deal. However, you're right that it really wants bigger or buffed tokens, which I'm not doing a whole lot of outside of the ascendancy effects. The problem with giving prowess monks, or jacked up Cathars' Crusade or Jeskai Ascendancy tokens double strike is that it will probably be a "win-more" most of the time. I think even the builds running Haze of Rage will find it unnecessary. You pay 11 mana before you even get there, so it kind of makes you ask, why not just run Flying Crane Technique and also gain the benefit of double strike for your non-tokens and of untapping your army?

So what this all means in my eyes is that the curve topping, game ending "mode" on this card is just not good enough on its own. The real question for me is, does it become good enough when I factor in the additional evasive body and conditional token production? I dunno. Basically it offers two effects that I like, but not a really powerful version of either. I think I'm off it for now. If I'm going to pay a premium for a token generator, I think I want one that's going to end the game in short order like The Locust God

[MeowZeDung]

Call the Coppercoats you say? Maybe this is your better White Sun's Zenith @WizardMN? Unfortunately it's only making 1/1 tokens, but it's doing so at instant speed and has the potential to make a TON of tokens for not a ton of mana. This thing plus an ascendancy effect is lights out.

[WizardMN]

I was thinking the same thing Now, I still don't have Ascendancy back in my deck (still not sure what I want to do and I can't play with anyone for the foreseeable future) but even just casting it targeting 1 person is likely going to be pretty decent. I was already on board with swapping out Zenith for Decree and this looks like a mostly better Decree. I am probably going to give it a try to see what it ends up doing. I have high hopes for the card.

[MeowZeDung]

Wow, have I been awful about double and triple posting so far this spoiler season! Anywho. . . Edit: whew wizard saved me by cross posting with this

Barracuda of the Tide is an interesting consideration. It doesn't do much for my token strategy beyond letting me flash out sorceries/artifacts/enchantments for token triggers on end steps, but it might be worth it just as another Silence that lets me loop Burning Inquiry with impunity.

I've already got Silence and Mandate of Peace which are Sunforger friendly, so I don't know that more combo protection redundancy is necessary, but the added flash is a nice little cherry on top!

[shermanido37]

Regarding Akim:
I don't think casting one cantrip a turn is a problem, and if we do play it that way it pretty much functions as a duplicate of whatever token making ability we have.
I feel like the ability is only good if you're buffing the team, because otherwise an anthem effect is better and doesn't cost 6 Mana.
Since I'm running Force of Vigor and Dictate of Heliod and Jeskai Ascendancy in my build, I will be lapping it up with gusto.

I really don't think the Barracuda helps much of anything here. We have plenty of instant spells and protection effects so it doesn't offer anything new really.

[MeowZeDung]

I really don't think the Barracuda helps much of anything here. We have plenty of instant spells and protection effects so it doesn't offer anything new really.

The appeal for me is flashing out breach on opponent's end step, then looping inquiry on my turn without opposing interaction. It's true that I can do the same with mandate of peace or silence, but the fish could add redundancy if I ever feel it's necessary, but I'm not there yet.

[MeowZeDung]

Well, hello there.

Seems good. If we can ult with even 50% consistency she's amazing. But can we?

Discuss.

Edit: the emblem can be the 4th piece in the bonus/reversal/turnabout loop. Fun.

[WizardMN]

When I saw her I immediately felt she was perfect for this deck. All of her abilities do a lot for us so even without her Emblem (which is pretty easy to get to) I think she can do good work for us. She may not be a game winner, even with her emblem, but I think the looting and the ramp are worth trying her out.

[MeowZeDung]

When I saw her I immediately felt she was perfect for this deck. All of her abilities do a lot for us so even without her Emblem (which is pretty easy to get to) I think she can do good work for us. She may not be a game winner, even with her emblem, but I think the looting and the ramp are worth trying her out.

Ramp for colored mana is good.

The minus 2 isn't sensational because of our low curve, but the discard is a may, so this can be simply "draw a card". I'm sure shocking some dork will be worth it much of the time too.

2 turn plus then ult is spicy if we can get there. It's kind of build your own niv-mizzet, parun.

Definitely finding room to try her out.

[WizardMN]

I didn't even realize the discard was a may. I am just so used to these things being both. That makes her even better. And yeah, our curve being low makes it less useful overall but when you really need a card, she is serviceable. I am looking forward to her ult of course. Now I just need to find a spot for her. I already cut Ral so I will have to see what else I might want to slot out.

[Rumpy5897]

Whirlwind of Thought is the newest in a long line of regrets over being Feather rather than Kykar is this as autoinclude as it looks?

[MeowZeDung]

Oh my. My oh my. Yes. Yes it is.

I'm... stunned...

[MeowZeDung]

I mean, imagine t1-2 rock, t3 kykar, t4 whirlwind of thought into faithless looting/ gamble/ skullclamp/ any rock/ impact tremors. You can get a pretty sizable storm count early with this thing, and it feeds itself. It makes artifacts even better in kykar lists by turning even t10+ rocks into cantrips on top of the body/ mana kykar brings to the table.

Sick.

Edit: to clarify, I mention artifacts specifically because spirit mana can pay for them, so it's this mutually beneficial loop of artifacts, card draw, and spirit mana. Artifact storm just got another Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain.

[WizardMN]

I think Whirlwind of Thought is great, though it might actually make me rethink Narset. I only have so many "flex" slots in my build and I still want to keep the curve down. As of right now, I really want both cards, but it is tough to find the right cards to cut for these.

Since this is a draw spell (essentially), I think cutting down on another draw spell is the best option. My first thought is cutting Fact or Fiction. In the long run, Whirlwind should give me far more than the 2-3 cards I am likely going to get with FoF. At the expense of needing to play a turn at Sorcery timing. Which I think is still a worthwhile cost.

Otherwise, I might look at cutting Teferi, Hero of Dominaria from my list. I don't want to since I really like the card, but I am not sure what else I can cut. I have even leaned into cutting Hour of Reckoning or another wrath because I rarely cast my wraths in this deck. And I still need to make room for a couple other cards so I am thinking of cutting Thirst for Meaning and Thirst for Knowledge as well.

This set has a lot of good cards for a number of my decks so finding cuts for all of them will be a chore

[MeowZeDung]

I think the thirsts and teferi are good cuts. Teferi is not explosive enough in multiplayer imo, unless you're proliferating or extra turns.

I'm also going to take a good, long look at draw spells and even single target removal for cuts at this point. Woof. So many good cards.

[tstorm823]

I mean, you're looking to cut draw spells for other draw spells. That's not so bad.

[MeowZeDung]

I mean, you're looking to cut draw spells for better draw spells. That's not so bad.

FTFY

Nope, not so bad at all.

[pokken]

I think Whirlwind of Thought is great, though it might actually make me rethink Narset. I only have so many "flex" slots in my build and I still want to keep the curve down. As of right now, I really want both cards, but it is tough to find the right cards to cut for these.

Since this is a draw spell (essentially), I think cutting down on another draw spell is the best option. My first thought is cutting Fact or Fiction. In the long run, Whirlwind should give me far more than the 2-3 cards I am likely going to get with FoF. At the expense of needing to play a turn at Sorcery timing. Which I think is still a worthwhile cost.

Otherwise, I might look at cutting Teferi, Hero of Dominaria from my list. I don't want to since I really like the card, but I am not sure what else I can cut. I have even leaned into cutting Hour of Reckoning or another wrath because I rarely cast my wraths in this deck. And I still need to make room for a couple other cards so I am thinking of cutting Thirst for Meaning and Thirst for Knowledge as well.

This set has a lot of good cards for a number of my decks so finding cuts for all of them will be a chore

whirlwind of thought really does not replace on curve draw spells you can cast to fix your lands. It requires you to have more fuel and also take a turn off right when you would be probably casting Kykar.

I would never cut the thirsts for this, though I don't see thirst for meaning being all that good in your build which is enchantment light (probably worse than predict or winged words)

Hour seems like a reasonable cut as well, but I don't think I would cut fof. the depth of cards you see off fof at an end step is really hard to replicate. And you can pay U for it by sac'ing a net of 3 tokens as well. Very powerful.

[MeowZeDung]

FoF is a sticking point for me. It's fantastic in nearly all blue decks. But kykar shines specifically with 1-2 mana draw spells and cantrips imo. 4 mana for a one time effect isn't ideal here. I think I'd rather opt + brainstorm with whirlwind of thought in play than cast those two + FoF. WoT synergies with literally everything in the deck too (at least Wizard's creatureless list), and FoF can't match that value.

That said, I take your points about smoothing out early draws and getting lands. That's why the 1-2 mana filters and cantrips stay.

The thirsts are very meh in multiplayer imo.

I wouldn't cut hour. Frequently free, nearly one sided wipe is amazeballs. You don't run ascendancy though, which is the wombo combo.

[WizardMN]

I like the Thirsts due to being instants which is why I have stayed away from Winged Words. I think in the end, Thirst for Meaning, Teferi, Hour, and Entreat the Angels make enough room for me to go with Narset, Whirlwind, the Strive token maker and the free indestructible spell. I certainly don't want to go too low with draw spells but I currently have 13 that are 3 mana or less (not counting things like Skullclamp and the X spells) so cutting 1 probably isn't the worst,

Though, after looking at my list, I probably should cut Sheltering Light or Ajani's Presence in favor of the free Indestructible spell. I don't think I need quite that many.

@MeowZeDung
That is my thoughts on FoF as well. I see Pokken's point of it being basically free with sacrificing spirits so it isn't an easy decision. Hour is on my list more because I have literally never cast it I think it works the best in a deck like this but I am starting to think it might just be "fluff" and I don't want to cut Nova because it deals with Artifacts and Enchantments and Verdict can't be countered when I know I *need* a wrath to resolve.

But, good points all around. There are a lot of things I will probably debate and try to articulate further in my thread in terms of where my head is at for things but these have been good thoughts to at least start my process of finding room for cards.

[shermanido37]

Am I the only one thinking Narset is not good enough?
I'm not sure about your metas, but mine is a very aggressive one. Between tiny goblins and huge dragons, there is no shortage of creatures to lay siege to planeswalkers. The only ones that survive are those that decently protect themselves, or those that have a strong immediate impact. Narset has neither, but relies on what you're running.
If the opponent is running only utility creatures, then sure, her -2 will most likely take care of that problem. But if you're looking at Carnage Tyrant, Akroma, Elesh Norn, Doom Whisperer, or really anything with evasion or protection, you can't rely on just her -2 and your spirits to protect her.
Her +1 is pretty sad, to be honest. Sure, it fixes you, after you've already acquired all 3 Jeskai colors, and it can't be spent on your commander.
And can I mention that tapping out with all 3 Jeskai colors to cast that, is not a good plan in my book?
Long story short, in my opinion this girl does not cut it. Hell, she is nowhere near as strong as her previous iteration, Narset Transcendent - even though she doesn't protect herself as well, her high starting loyalty helps her stay alive until you can, and the card advantage she provides you with each of her non-ult abilities is worth it in my opinion.


Also, my two cents about Hour:
It is a very, very powerful card. Blowing up the board for WWW is something that no one expects at all.
However, I don't think that Kykar necessarily wants to be doing that.
Firstly, WWW is very hard for a tri-colored deck to acquire. Even if it's your primary color, there's still a strong possibility that you won't get the mana needed to play it. To me, that would most likely also mean that those are the times you really want to blow up the board, because you're behind, but if you can't do it that's not worth much.
Secondly, this blows up EVERYTHING. In commander it's quite possible that you'll play this card then pass to your opponents, then they will recover their boards before you do, effectively rendering your efforts useless. I play it in Ephara because my commander is indestructible, therefore I will always come up ahead after blowing up any board that has her in it. This reason is why it's usually preferable to play cards that blow up whatever favors you, like Austere Command, Cleansing Nova, Retribution of the Meek, Tragic Arrogance, Toxic Deluge, etc.

[pokken]

I think they are talking about hour of reckoning not revelation.

[WizardMN]

It is certainly possible Narset ends up not being worth it. But her abilities are all relevant and seem like they can be good enough. Most likely, Whirlwind of Thought is the bigger star but I want to try Narset anyway.

And yeah, we were talking about Hour of Reckoning

[MeowZeDung]

Re: Narset - I think these are good points. 4 mana ramp isn't great for us, even if it produces colored mana. I think her minus will be the least activated of her abilities. I'm into her for the ultimate. The key is that it's ult time 2 turns after she hits the table, otherwise I'd be off of her since including a PW for an ult is usually poor deckbuilding.

Obviously that's telegraphed to our opponents, but I think you're underestimating how we can protect her. 1/1 flyers deal with anything without trample/pro white/unblockable, but that's really just the start. Many of our other tokens are flying to keep conventional PW killers at bay (1/1 birds, 1/1 insects, 2/2 drakes, flipped docent wizards), We've got Mandate of Peace and Mirrorweave to pants opponents who try to attack her. Ascendancy/Crusade/Mentor tokens are also able to play some solid D. If it turns out she's great and ults with some reliability, then you could make the case for adding Fight to the Death, which is already on my maybe someday list. There's also Turnabout precombat for any opponent that has something we can't block, or a proactive Role Reversal targeting such a creature. Last, but not least, is good ol' Chaos Warp, Generous Gift, PtE, and StP.

You may be right. If her price isn't insane I'm going to pick one up and test her out. If I can ult her with any reliability whatsover I think she's great.

It is certainly possible Narset ends up not being worth it. But her abilities are all relevant and seem like they can be good enough. Most likely, Whirlwind of Thought is the bigger star but I want to try Narset anyway.

100% this.

Firstly, WWW is very hard for a tri-colored deck to acquire. Even if it's your primary color, there's still a strong possibility that you won't get the mana needed to play it. To me, that would most likely also mean that those are the times you really want to blow up the board, because you're behind, but if you can't do it that's not worth much.
Secondly, this blows up EVERYTHING. In commander it's quite possible that you'll play this card then pass to your opponents, then they will recover their boards before you do, effectively rendering your efforts useless.

Yeah, like @pokken said, we're discussing hour of reckoning, which is easy to cast in Kykar because our spirits are white and can pay the full convoke cost, and it only blows up non-token creatures.