Nadu, Winged Wisdom - There is a new King of the cEDH table

[darrenhabib]

I've been thinking of if there were any ways to make the deck have some function outside of Nadu as benjameenbear suggested.

Cephalid Illusionist and Cephalid Aristocrat can mill your library with the equipment. Simic isn't known for is Hermit Druid strategies on their own as graveyard reanimation isn't a thing.
But milling library for a Thassa Oracle win would be the idea. If you have Oracle in hand then great, but the idea is most games you will mill it.
The best I could come up with so far for mana cost is Memory's Journey (shuffling back Thassa) and something like Flash of Insight or Deep Analysis to draw it. That would be 1guuu needed to cast these in same turn (thats the Thassa as well).
I actually think this is pretty good. The idea is that you can lean into graveyard matters more.
Shifting Woodland could be used to effect.
You could play Hermit Druid to double up on this idea. Currently I have 4 basics, so not that far off from being able to change mana base to accomodate.

Freestrider Lookout can give triggers with 33 cards in the deck able to commit a crime. As many of these are instants, this proves well to get around the "once each turn". But it's not a combo card it just can give you value from cards you are already playing.

Orvar, the All-Form has 6 instants that could target something. Realistically not enough, but discarding due to Wheel of Fortune effects can happen. Would need a build with more of the protection spells like Tamiyo's Safekeeping, Tyvar's Stand and some others like this.

[darrenhabib]

Went a clean 4/4 wins today. Turn 5, Turn 4, sort of Turn 2 and Turn 4. Even went last in one of them.

I had Nadu (Jeweled Lotus) and Unctus, Grand Metatect in play on Turn 2 and was making more creatures with Springheart Nantuko. I went down to 7 life with Unctus, Grand Metatect ability and passed the turn with a hand full of cards, rather than going any further.
My opponents played out their Turn 3, but they all conceded before I got my 3rd turn because they could see all the cards I had drawn and I had a lot of mana to untap with.

One of the Turn 4 game there were two opponents with Rhystic Study, so I was trying to play around them as best as possible rather than the most explosive plays. This slowed me down, so theoretically I might have been able to go for it on Turn 3, but I think I played it correctly a bit slower not giving my opponents cards until I felt more comfortable going off.

I used the Paradise Mantle in two games today with decent effect.
I had two mana creatures, so didn't make any difference that I equipped them, but Nadu did pay for itself, but then all the other creatures came into play with summoning sickness, so it was essentially an Elvish Herder. Good enough though to get me some traction.
In the other game I started it with a non-mana creature so provide some mana and gave me a trigger on Turn 2.
Then I had 3 creatures on Turn 3 that didn't provide mana, so it was good. Definitely positive for the deck.

That's a 22/27 record.

Added
Paradise Mantle

Removed
Indigo Faerie

[yeti1069]

Went a clean 4/4 wins today. Turn 5, Turn 4, sort of Turn 2 and Turn 4. Even went last in one of them.

I had Nadu (Jeweled Lotus) and Unctus, Grand Metatect in play on Turn 2 and was making more creatures with Springheart Nantuko. I went down to 7 life with Unctus, Grand Metatect ability and passed the turn with a hand full of cards, rather than going any further.
My opponents played out their Turn 3, but they all conceded before I got my 3rd turn because they could see all the cards I had drawn and I had a lot of mana to untap with.

One of the Turn 4 game there were two opponents with Rhystic Study, so I was trying to play around them as best as possible rather than the most explosive plays. This slowed me down, so theoretically I might have been able to go for it on Turn 3, but I think I played it correctly a bit slower not giving my opponents cards until I felt more comfortable going off.

I used the Paradise Mantle in two games today with decent effect.
I had two mana creatures, so didn't make any difference that I equipped them, but Nadu did pay for itself, but then all the other creatures came into play with summoning sickness, so it was essentially an Elvish Herder. Good enough though to get me some traction.
In the other game I started it with a non-mana creature so provide some mana and gave me a trigger on Turn 2.
Then I had 3 creatures on Turn 3 that didn't provide mana, so it was good. Definitely positive for the deck.

That's a 22/27 record.

Added
Paradise Mantle

Removed
Indigo Faerie

Were there any attempts to counter Nadu on cast, or remove Nadu once on the field?

[pokken]

Alright, go with me a sec. Is this a Snapcaster Mage deck??

Ol snap plus the multi target spells feels like kind of a bomb. It adds another body and could make a 4 mana chain of drawing (2x +1).

He's not insanely mana efficient but is very good with some of the interaction too.

[darrenhabib]

Were there any attempts to counter Nadu on cast, or remove Nadu once on the field?

In these 4 games? No trying to counter Nadu. One of the games they had a Swords to Plowshares but I drew a Dispel off the targeting! Even I felt bad at that stage for my opponents. RNG at its finest.

To be fair, this all happens within the first four turns of game and decks and players do have to advance their own board and game plan. Being a control deck isn't the best way of winning these days.
My #1 cEDH used to be a control deck with Tymna the Weaver // Thrasios, Triton Hero where I was the police with a lot of counterspells and removal, with a few stax elements.
Unfortunately the introduction of Orcish Bowmasters really set back this deck because my main plan of getting cards to literally keep control was from small creatures and getting triggers with Tymna.
Now it's interesting that I have tons of 1/1 type creatures in the Nadu deck, but the fact that I get a trigger off any targeting makes it sooooo much better against Orcish Bowmasters.

Anyway I've been saying decks will need to be more interactive in the future if you want to better your chances against Nadu at your table, but at the same time its not possible to always be able to do that. If you are the only one trying to police a table then the other combo decks, of which many of them can do it on Turn 3 easily are going to get windows to win. Its going to need to be a collective effort of the meta imo.

[darrenhabib]

Alright, go with me a sec. Is this a Snapcaster Mage deck??

Ol snap plus the multi target spells feels like kind of a bomb. It adds another body and could make a 4 mana chain of drawing (2x +1).

He's not insanely mana efficient but is very good with some of the interaction too.

I'll come back to if I could play test Sea Kings' Blessing/Sylvan Paradise then Snapcaster Mage looks much better.
Otherwise 3 mana interaction looks less than average I would say, even though it adds another body.

I'll use this as a good opportunity to talk about creatures. Whenever you can play a creature over another type of spell, without giving up quality completely, you want to go that way with Nadu.

Should I be playing Cursecatcher, Mausoleum Wanderer, Malevolent Hermit // Benevolent Geist over say Pact of Negation, Swan Song, Force of Negation?
The instants are obviously hard counters, but the bodies can be a big help. I actually think the answer maybe yes, or at least one or two of them.

Here are some of the other creatures I've tried.
Tamiyo, Inquisitive Student, Symmetry Sage, Collector Ouphe, Shield Sphere, Elusive Otter // Grove's Bounty, Tribute Mage, Indigo Faerie, Kiora's Follower (along with a bunch of untap other).

Then this is a list of cards I've put aside when drafting the deck.
Ornithopter, Memnite, Stinging Lionfish, Thunderclap Drake, Omen Hawker, Realmwright, Esior, Wardwing Familiar, Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief, Shigeki, Jukai Visionary, Allosaurus Shepherd, Arboreal Grazer, Artificer's Assistant, Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Reclaimer, K-9, Mark I, Cursecatcher, Mausoleum Wanderer, Malevolent Hermit // Benevolent Geist, Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger.

Then on top of this there are a number of 2 mana creatures that tap for mana that could easily be good in the deck, like Wall of Roots, Priest of Titania, Sylvan Caryatid to name a few that I've been thinking about.

Anyway you can see that the choice for slots is very competitive and you have to squeeze as much from that creature as possible.
So I can definitely say that creatures like Ornithopter, Memnite, Shield Sphere are not good for this deck. Maybe if I played Whir of Invention, but your creatures HAVE to do something, they just can't be extra bodies for triggers.

Of interest I think the worst card in the deck is Thassa's Oracle. I've won with Finale of Devastation 100% of the games (where opponents don't actually scoop to whats going on) with all the Springheart Nantuko and Scute Swarm tokens for hundreds of damage every game. It happens far earlier than drawing your deck, that's why.
I'd say if Thassa's Oracle was a graveyard retrieval card instead, to get the Finale of Devastation if you've used it already, the deck would be stronger.
Maybe Endurance or Eternal Witness. There you go @benjameenbear Witness got a real shot at being part of the deck.
Plus this idea of "oh what happens if opponent takes away your Finale of Devastation?" with a Praetor's Grasp (or whatever).
I'll beat you with 1000s of 1/1 & 2/2 tokens is what I'll do and pump them with Bristly Bill, Spine Sower if you want some win-more. Drawing as much of your deck with as much mana as you need, you really don't need win conditions.

[EDIT]
I thought this was quite ironic I played a game today where this was my starting hand.



If Swan Song was Mausoleum Wanderer and Force of Negation was say Malevolent Hermit // Benevolent Geist then this hand would have been good. I had to throw it back however.

[yeti1069]

Were there any attempts to counter Nadu on cast, or remove Nadu once on the field?

In these 4 games? No trying to counter Nadu. One of the games they had a Swords to Plowshares but I drew a Dispel off the targeting! Even I felt bad at that stage for my opponents. RNG at its finest.

To be fair, this all happens within the first four turns of game and decks and players do have to advance their own board and game plan. Being a control deck isn't the best way of winning these days.
My #1 cEDH used to be a control deck with Tymna the Weaver // Thrasios, Triton Hero where I was the police with a lot of counterspells and removal, with a few stax elements.
Unfortunately the introduction of Orcish Bowmasters really set back this deck because my main plan of getting cards to literally keep control was from small creatures and getting triggers with Tymna.
Now it's interesting that I have tons of 1/1 type creatures in the Nadu deck, but the fact that I get a trigger off any targeting makes it sooooo much better against Orcish Bowmasters.

Anyway I've been saying decks will need to be more interactive in the future if you want to better your chances against Nadu at your table, but at the same time its not possible to always be able to do that. If you are the only one trying to police a table then the other combo decks, of which many of them can do it on Turn 3 easily are going to get windows to win. Its going to need to be a collective effort of the meta imo.

I'm noticing that to a degree with Yuriko. In my games vs Nadu, I've neutralized Nadu quite a bit with stuff like Force of Despair and Flare of Malice, but doing so also too often leaves me without answers to what everyone else is doing.

[darrenhabib]

I'm noticing that to a degree with Yuriko. In my games vs Nadu, I've neutralized Nadu quite a bit with stuff like Force of Despair and Flare of Malice, but doing so also too often leaves me without answers to what everyone else is doing.

Oh yeah cards that make players sacrifice highest mana value are going to work against Nadu.
Extract a Confession, Flare of Malice, Riveteers Charm, Soul Shatter.

Flare of Malice costs you two cards, to get one card. For your other opponents thats a 3-for-0 play. I don't want to go down that rabbit-hole, but unless your deck has massive card advantage, which Yuriko can definitely do, not all decks can afford that type of card disadvantage.

I went 3/5 today. An opponent went off with a 3rd turn Bolas's Citadel ahead of me. Fair enough.
The other game I lost was more of an interesting one. I had no plays, so I cast out Nadu with literally nothing else. Maybe I could have not cast, but not using your mana at all seemed bad as well. Opponent had removal, and by the time I got 5 mana to cast again, game was firmly in the favor of another opponent and straight out killed me with creature damage.

That's a 25/32 record.

[darrenhabib]

Won 3 out of 5 games today.

Got a Turn 2 win. Went 3rd in that game and K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth was close to winning on their Turn 2 before me.

Had one game where players had been stung a little too much by my antics in previous games and used all their resources on me. I still almost went off and the opponents who expended their spells stopping me, gave the game to the other combo player. That's the problem with needing to invest so much on stopping this Nadu strategy that you unlikely to win.
It sort of forces people to play other combo decks that can win Turn 3 or 4. Being the control player is no good in the games I've played. You want to be a combo player that can just do its thing. I'm almost at 40 games with Nadu now so I've seen the pattern that the games I've lost have been to other combo players who are insulated doing their own thing and get something on Turn 2-4. And they do well, because Nadu is the boogeyman at the table, and justifiably those control players have to throw everything at Nadu.

I've been trying Mausoleum Wanderer, Cursecatcher and Malevolent Hermit // Benevolent Geist over Thassa's Oracle and Pact of Negation.
I tried Malevolent Hermit // Benevolent Geist (first) and it was a little clunky so playing the Cursecatcher instead. These have felt pretty good. They do more work than you'll know as opponents have to play around them.
I even had Shuko on Mausoleum Wanderer and my opponent had no choice but to play their Toxic Deluge into it (they only had one mana spare) as they knew if I untapped it was game over. Basically they did this to put me a creature down. I still won, surprise surprise.

That's a 28/37 record.

[darrenhabib]

It's over. I lost every single game today, went 0 for 5. Time to take the deck apart, it can't compete in the shifting meta.
Ha ha in all seriousness though I did actually lose all the games today, which I'm fine with.
Yes it is a powerful Commander, but all of Commander is powerful when pushed to the limits of what can be done.

One game I was the one that had to stop a Temur Sabertooth + Dockside combo, literally casting Pongify and Rapid Hybridization as they used Veil of Summer in response to the first one. Of course this let another player (same turn round) to go off as I had shields down.

I messed up one game. Played my lands incorrectly and it potentially lost the game, but can't be certain. Felt bad about that one.

One player had a Turn 2 Ad Nauseam .. GG.

Another one forced the control player to send their counters at me, surprise surprise another deck then had a window to go off.
The place to be in the meta, as I said previously is to just be a deck that can combo off quickly and hope that a Nadu player is at the table to soak up all the resources. Not even joking.

Turns out a Turn 3 Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation is still good to win games Not even any tutors. That one felt anti-climatic

All in all, it does comfort me that Nadu is just a fine card in the mix. Plenty of other cards that could be banned before the bird.

That's a 28/42 record. A hack Commander.

[benjameenbear]

Yeah. What a hack Commander... lol.

Did you see the results from the MH3 Modern Pro Tour? Check it out, you'll probably lol with me too. It's absolutely hilarious to see that WOTC can't seem to learn from the past and continues to print stupidly overpowered cards.

I don't believe this will trickle down to EDH, but I think it brings attention to Nadu as a Commander and we'll probably see a shift in the metagame. I personally predict faster Naus decks that can just go under/over Nadu personally, since there's a very narrow suite of Stax pieces that can realistically slow down Nadu's gameplan consistently enough.

[darrenhabib]

Yeah. What a hack Commander... lol.

Did you see the results from the MH3 Modern Pro Tour? Check it out, you'll probably lol with me too. It's absolutely hilarious to see that WOTC can't seem to learn from the past and continues to print stupidly overpowered cards.

I don't believe this will trickle down to EDH, but I think it brings attention to Nadu as a Commander and we'll probably see a shift in the metagame. I personally predict faster Naus decks that can just go under/over Nadu personally, since there's a very narrow suite of Stax pieces that can realistically slow down Nadu's gameplan consistently enough.

Hehe I did actually watch the tournament. The stream live chat was like "ban the bird" most of the weekend.
There was a lot of arguments about the typical step that Wizards try to do is ban one of the other combo pieces, in this case Shuko before Nadu. This is of course because Nadu is part of their flagship set and they don't want dead cards in boosters to drive sales down. This method never works as players just find other lines as proven in the past when they have tried to do this.
We will see though, it might be that Nadu is just too much for the Modern meta and meets a ban sooner rather than later.
The other problem is that because the Modern deck has 4x Chord of Calling (+2x Summoner's Pact), its hard for decks to put hate cards into their decks as Chord can get solutions. So as the meta adjusts, so do the Nadu decks to have creatures that can deal with the opposing hate pieces.

If Nadu gets a ban in Modern straight away, maybe that will actually have an effect on EDH and the RC wake up from their torpor to see what is stirring on the outside world.