Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[MAGUSZANIN]

Desynchronization is interesting as a value play in the same way Filter Out is a value play, but I wouldn't consider it a boardwipe. You have to be a deck where it's effectively one sided and you are comfortable slamming it proactively, I think.

[materpillar]

@folding_music Sure, I can definitely understand that.

Honestly I feel kinda split.

Non-UB sets have the aesthetics I want from the game, but the vast majority of gross cards, especially commanders, are from them. I'm always holding my breath that we don't get, well, a Nadu. Recently this seems to keep getting worse and worse.

UB sets, for whatever reason, seem to have a power level I find much more appealing, but I hate the aesthetics, and the cross-promotional nature of UB raises my hackles on principle.

Seems like every release has elements I really don't like about it.

Digesting UB sets for me has been interesting. I went to the game room at a convention recently and almost everyone was very new and they were mostly playing unmodified Fallout/WH40k precons. I'd be shocked if they weren't playing magic that day because of UB. That's made me pull back on my hatred a lot.

Also, a lot of UB cards don't feel nearly as lore breaking as I thought they would. All these Assassin's Creed cards mostly feel like normal magic cards to me. Excalibur, Sword of Eden could have been printed in an Eldraine set and I wouldn't have blinked. The Wise Mothman could fit on any number of magic planes.

I'll take extremely well balanced UB advertisement products over Nadu, Winged Wisdom and Fierce Guardianship any day of the week.

Also, High CMC is eating gooooood this set. Excalibur, Sword of Eden is so flippin good for me. I'm also excited to Emblem The Capitoline Triad.

[5colorsrainbow]

I went to the game room at a convention recently and almost everyone was very new and they were mostly playing unmodified Fallout/WH40k precons. I'd be shocked if they weren't playing magic that day because of UB. That's made me pull back on my hatred a lot.

From what Maro and others have said the two biggest buyers of UB are new players and fans of the outside IP, with a good chunk being new players who are fans of the outside IP.

Personally my hope is that people will get into magic thought UB and come to enjoy magics own flavor. I've kinda seen it as I have a friend who I got to read the MKM stories cuz he loves clue (and an "UB") and murder mysteries and if the clue set wasn't stupid pricey I would have bought him to try and get him to learn.

[Guardman]

A lot of my concerns about the UB stuff was put to rest when I saw the WH40K precons. Sure, some of the things still annoy me, and the Assassin's Creed set seems like a miss overall. But the Necron precon deck does a ton to smooth that over. It and the LotR Food and Fellowship commander decks are two of my favorite precons they have ever released. Food and Fellowship with Merry, Warden of Isengard and Pippin, Warden of Isengard at the helm are my go-to deck when we are doing a precon night. (The only reason it's not the Necron deck is that deck has been cannibalized by so many other decks ).

[Toshi]

Oh man, Assassin Initiate will be hilarious in Lazav, the Multifarious!

[Dunadain]

We got a fixed Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist in Alexios, Deimos of Kosmos . Still UB though 🤮

I was tutoring up Assault Suit in Zurgo Helmsmasher long before it was cool 😎


The Aesir Escape Valhalla is WAY too slow to be good, but man it's it a cool design.

A Reconnaissance reprint that doesn't contradict it's own Oracle text is welcome.

[Hermes_]

We got a fixed Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist in Alexios, Deimos of Kosmos . Still UB though 🤮

make me wanna put Zedruu back together

[CommanderMaster999]

Staff of Eden, Vault's Key

Well Gonti, Canny Acquisitor, Sen Triplets Laughing Jasper Flint and Don Andres, the Renegade type of deck players will be very happy

(Except if they refuse to play with UB cards ofcourse.)

[Lifeless]

We got a fixed Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist in Alexios, Deimos of Kosmos . Still UB though 🤮

Just pretend he's from Theros

[Dunadain]

We got a fixed Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist in Alexios, Deimos of Kosmos . Still UB though 🤮

Just pretend he's from Theros

I honestly might, I really like this design space, and that wasn't a joke earlier. I did have a dedicated zeurgo deck designed around finding a sault suit and passing zurgo around, the reason slicer might be my least favorite card of all time is a combination of factors, but one of those factors is that it took such a cool concept and was so outrageously busted that I couldn't actually use it.

So now that we have a fixed version, I might look into it.

[benjameenbear]

Looking at the commonly played removal in the format, very little of it cares about toughness. Maybe fourth bridge prowler is a relevant card in cEDH for some reason I can't fathom, but I've never seen anyone play it. Stuff like lightning bolt comes up on rare occasions - hence 99% and not 100%.

As far as blocking or planeswalkers, I guess I have a hard time envisioning a game where Nadu is sticking around on-board long enough that those things are relevant, and he doesn't just hurry up and win. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Interesting observation. How many explicitly cEDH-caliber games have you played? I ask this with all due respect because I think you might not fully understand the playstyle, game development, and deck construction of cEDH.

First, Fourth Bridge Prowler is a solid card in Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow. It's a T1 creature that can get rid of an early mana dork or blocker to trigger Yuriko's Ninjitsu ability. It can also clear future X/1 blockers to help create more Ninjitsu triggers for Yuriko. It's not the strongest card by any stretch, but it has a role in Yuriko specifically. To be fair, this is the only use case for Prowler in any EDH game I can think of, so your general observation of not seeing it in regular non-cEDH play is definitely accurate.

You're also accurate in the fact that the most commonly played removal in the format, even cEDH specifically, cares very little about toughness. The issue specifically with cEDH is the much lower density of resolved-creature removal effects are represented in decklists. This is more of tangential response to your comment, but still worth mentioning since it substantiates the later analysis I make. Frequently, there's only 3-5 hard removal effects that actually kill the creature outright. This means that creatures specifically have a habit of easily resolving and then sticking around far longer than they should simply because players don't have answers to a resolved creature. I think Nadu significantly exposes this weakness in the cEDH metagame.

In regards to Nadu sticking around long enough that his stats become relevant, a flying 3/4 attacker makes including Planeswalkers like Teferi, Time Raveler a one-time use kind of card instead of a constant disruption piece an opponent can rely on. It also specifically pressures Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools with his flying and attack stat, which has pairings with Kraum that are well-represented in the metagame from a statistical standpoint. I personally play Tevesh + Thrasios, and Nadu can keep my Tevesh under control without much opportunity cost while still providing its primary effect.

Further, there are at least two Commanders with power 3 (or less) that want combat damage triggers but WON'T want to attack into an untapped Nadu because of his statline: Tymna and Najeela. Historically and statistically, these are two very relevant Commanders where Nadu's statline is explicitly important. Nadu's big fat birdy butt creates an additional barrier for those players receiving a key advantage (cards or board development, respectively) from their Commanders' abilities that can impact their strategies and resource development.

I also think it's important to state that, contrary to popular belief, many cEDH games go past T3. Many of them frequently end around T5 or T6 in my experience, actually. So in the case that a cEDH game goes into this mid-game stage, being able to pressure an Ad Naus player's life total with a virtually unblockable 3/4 creature is a great feature from a spell that's always present via the Command Zone. Combine this with the fact Nadu can also pressure Planeswalkers and profitably block key attackers commonly seen in a cEDH game makes him a force to always be aware of.

[pokken]

Not dying to Lightning Bolt or Pyroclasm is a pretty big deal or it was back when I was playin :D and forcing an X=4 Toxic Deluge has impacts (killing your own Kraum, Ludevic's Opus for example).

[DirkGently]

Interesting observation. How many explicitly cEDH-caliber games have you played?

Against Nadu? None. I don't play cEDH unless there's nothing else available. It's not my format.

If Nadu was only an issue for cEDH decks - like how Thrasios, Triton Hero is a strong cEDH commander, but doesn't really do anything problematic in normal commander - I wouldn't care. Of course I acknowledge that his power level in cEDH is part of the discussion, but it's not really the part I'm concerned with (nor the part that should be relevant to banlist discussion imo). And it's not the format to which I directed my initial comment.

That said, I do keep my ear to the ground, especially as regards the nadu discourse. I don't see many people bringing up the power and toughness on cEDH reddit.

First, Fourth Bridge Prowler is a solid card in Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.

I understand what it's used for, but personally, I would not play it, cEDH or otherwise. In my experience, playing removal that proactive and narrow is not an effective way to use removal to win.

Also we might be getting a bit too literal. Nadu would be kinda strange to see as a 0/1. They don't often print 3+mv creatures with that small of a statline, especially in modern magic. If they were printing the same card with non-pushed stats, he'd probably be a 2/2 or something along those lines.

I think Nadu significantly exposes this weakness in the cEDH metagame.

I do see people making that argument on reddit. Considering the Nadu player gets a trigger off removal, counterspells seem like the preferrable answer to me - but a lot of the common cEDH counterspells are focused around noncreatures. Obviously removal is more flexible, but if we're committing to warping the entire metagame around one commander, we might as well make the answer the most effective one.

In regards to Nadu sticking around long enough that his stats become relevant, a flying 3/4 attacker makes including Planeswalkers like Teferi, Time Raveler a one-time use kind of card instead of a constant disruption piece an opponent can rely on.

Everything I'm seeing on cEDH reddit, and from darrenhabib's exploits, indicates to me that in cEDH Nadu cannot be allowed to exist on the board for any length of time if the game isn't going to end. For that matter, you yourself (on this thread and others) are saying that he needs to be removed immediately.

I'll maybe buy that, on rare occasions, a Tymna player might want to hit the Nadu player for an extra card (and the other players aren't open and are unwilling to take a hit to help the Tymna player find removal for the Nadu, or are already being hit by other creatures). But if we're talking about Nadu attacking, either we've got a resolved lightning greaves + Nadu (which seems like game over) or he survived an entire trip around the table, which also sounds like game over. Obviously bad draws can happen, so it's not impossible that Nadu could somehow have no enablers to go off with (or no other creatures to move greaves onto), but this seems like an extremely niche case.

[TheGildedGoose]

me when Sink into Stupor and Fell the Profane are the second and third most played cards in MH3:

[yeti1069]

Looking at the commonly played removal in the format, very little of it cares about toughness. Maybe fourth bridge prowler is a relevant card in cEDH for some reason I can't fathom, but I've never seen anyone play it. Stuff like lightning bolt comes up on rare occasions - hence 99% and not 100%.

As far as blocking or planeswalkers, I guess I have a hard time envisioning a game where Nadu is sticking around on-board long enough that those things are relevant, and he doesn't just hurry up and win. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm generally talking about cEDH from a Yuriko perspective, where FBP is a fantastic card, but I've seen some other cards that care about stats come up. There are -2/-2 and even some -3/-3 effects floating around. I've run Crippling Fear on and off, for example. I've seen Cut Down. I'm currently running Spinning Darkness.

Looking at the commonly played removal in the format, very little of it cares about toughness. Maybe fourth bridge prowler is a relevant card in cEDH for some reason I can't fathom, but I've never seen anyone play it. Stuff like lightning bolt comes up on rare occasions - hence 99% and not 100%.

As far as blocking or planeswalkers, I guess I have a hard time envisioning a game where Nadu is sticking around on-board long enough that those things are relevant, and he doesn't just hurry up and win. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Interesting observation. How many explicitly cEDH-caliber games have you played? I ask this with all due respect because I think you might not fully understand the playstyle, game development, and deck construction of cEDH.

First, Fourth Bridge Prowler is a solid card in Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow. It's a T1 creature that can get rid of an early mana dork or blocker to trigger Yuriko's Ninjitsu ability. It can also clear future X/1 blockers to help create more Ninjitsu triggers for Yuriko. It's not the strongest card by any stretch, but it has a role in Yuriko specifically. To be fair, this is the only use case for Prowler in any EDH game I can think of, so your general observation of not seeing it in regular non-cEDH play is definitely accurate.

You're also accurate in the fact that the most commonly played removal in the format, even cEDH specifically, cares very little about toughness. The issue specifically with cEDH is the much lower density of resolved-creature removal effects are represented in decklists. This is more of tangential response to your comment, but still worth mentioning since it substantiates the later analysis I make. Frequently, there's only 3-5 hard removal effects that actually kill the creature outright. This means that creatures specifically have a habit of easily resolving and then sticking around far longer than they should simply because players don't have answers to a resolved creature. I think Nadu significantly exposes this weakness in the cEDH metagame.

In regards to Nadu sticking around long enough that his stats become relevant, a flying 3/4 attacker makes including Planeswalkers like Teferi, Time Raveler a one-time use kind of card instead of a constant disruption piece an opponent can rely on. It also specifically pressures Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools with his flying and attack stat, which has pairings with Kraum that are well-represented in the metagame from a statistical standpoint. I personally play Tevesh + Thrasios, and Nadu can keep my Tevesh under control without much opportunity cost while still providing its primary effect.

Further, there are at least two Commanders with power 3 (or less) that want combat damage triggers but WON'T want to attack into an untapped Nadu because of his statline: Tymna and Najeela. Historically and statistically, these are two very relevant Commanders where Nadu's statline is explicitly important. Nadu's big fat birdy butt creates an additional barrier for those players receiving a key advantage (cards or board development, respectively) from their Commanders' abilities that can impact their strategies and resource development.

I also think it's important to state that, contrary to popular belief, many cEDH games go past T3. Many of them frequently end around T5 or T6 in my experience, actually. So in the case that a cEDH game goes into this mid-game stage, being able to pressure an Ad Naus player's life total with a virtually unblockable 3/4 creature is a great feature from a spell that's always present via the Command Zone. Combine this with the fact Nadu can also pressure Planeswalkers and profitably block key attackers commonly seen in a cEDH game makes him a force to always be aware of.

Yeah. All of this. a 3/4 is HUGE in cEDH. Flying as well. Nadu doesn't use its own life much, but the commander makes it very difficult to pressure life as well. Nadu is free to play Gilded Drake without having to worry about getting hit with the 3/3 flyer afterwards.

Interesting observation. How many explicitly cEDH-caliber games have you played?

Against Nadu? None. I don't play cEDH unless there's nothing else available. It's not my format.

If Nadu was only an issue for cEDH decks - like how Thrasios, Triton Hero is a strong cEDH commander, but doesn't really do anything problematic in normal commander - I wouldn't care. Of course I acknowledge that his power level in cEDH is part of the discussion, but it's not really the part I'm concerned with (nor the part that should be relevant to banlist discussion imo). And it's not the format to which I directed my initial comment.

That said, I do keep my ear to the ground, especially as regards the nadu discourse. I don't see many people bringing up the power and toughness on cEDH reddit.

First, Fourth Bridge Prowler is a solid card in Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.

I understand what it's used for, but personally, I would not play it, cEDH or otherwise. In my experience, playing removal that proactive and narrow is not an effective way to use removal to win.

Removal with an almost 0 opportunity cost, that actively promotes your own game plan while slowing someone else down doesn't seem like an effective way to use removal to win? cEDH mana and hands are often tight. Removing a mana dork on 1 can take someone out of the game. Killing off an Esper Sentinel can prevent someone from drawing a bunch of cards over the course of a game.

It can also be used politically alongside other attackers when known info: if you block my 1-power dude with your 2-toughness dude, I will play this and kill your 2-toughness dude after combat. Or, you play it before combat and force them to make the choice of blocking and losing their creature or letting it through.

Also we might be getting a bit too literal. Nadu would be kinda strange to see as a 0/1. They don't often print 3+mv creatures with that small of a statline, especially in modern magic. If they were printing the same card with non-pushed stats, he'd probably be a 2/2 or something along those lines.

I think Nadu significantly exposes this weakness in the cEDH metagame.

I do see people making that argument on reddit. Considering the Nadu player gets a trigger off removal, counterspells seem like the preferrable answer to me - but a lot of the common cEDH counterspells are focused around noncreatures. Obviously removal is more flexible, but if we're committing to warping the entire metagame around one commander, we might as well make the answer the most effective one.

In regards to Nadu sticking around long enough that his stats become relevant, a flying 3/4 attacker makes including Planeswalkers like Teferi, Time Raveler a one-time use kind of card instead of a constant disruption piece an opponent can rely on.

Everything I'm seeing on cEDH reddit, and from darrenhabib's exploits, indicates to me that in cEDH Nadu cannot be allowed to exist on the board for any length of time if the game isn't going to end. For that matter, you yourself (on this thread and others) are saying that he needs to be removed immediately.

I'll maybe buy that, on rare occasions, a Tymna player might want to hit the Nadu player for an extra card (and the other players aren't open and are unwilling to take a hit to help the Tymna player find removal for the Nadu, or are already being hit by other creatures). But if we're talking about Nadu attacking, either we've got a resolved lightning greaves + Nadu (which seems like game over) or he survived an entire trip around the table, which also sounds like game over. Obviously bad draws can happen, so it's not impossible that Nadu could somehow have no enablers to go off with (or no other creatures to move greaves onto), but this seems like an extremely niche case.

Very few of the cEDH games I've played have ended in the first 3 turns...but I'm also playing a ton of free interaction to try and push the game longer.

Removal is criminally underplayed in cEDH, which is an issue. Board wipes and other effects that would remove Nadu are hardly seen.

If Nadu were a 1/3, a 2/2, or even a 2/3, if would be solid, but not quite as resilient and versatile. They made Nadu a very efficient creature, then gave it some crazy abilities that don't care whether it's tapped or in combat or not.

My experience vs Nadu in a half-dozen games or so has been that Nadu doesn't necessarily win if it survives a turn cycle--there's points of interaction to slow it down...such as Fourth Bridge Prowlering their Seeker of Skybreak the turn before. It represents a lot of card advantage, but can be kind of durdly on the way to a win. Also, the issue with calling out countermagic as the removal of choice ignores that a) Nadu may well come down t1 before players have the ability to interact on the stack, b) there are very few free counterspells that hit creatures, and c) holding up 2+ mana to counter Nadu instead of progressing your own gameplan may be just as bad, from a winning perspective, as letting it resolve.

I've, personally, not had too tough a time vs Nadu, because I'm running way more removal than is typical for cEDH, and a few pieces of that don't target, but there's still the issue of needing to throw so many resources at one creature/commander meaning you have fewer for the other 2 players.

[benjameenbear]

Against Nadu? None. I don't play cEDH unless there's nothing else available. It's not my format.

If Nadu was only an issue for cEDH decks - like how Thrasios, Triton Hero is a strong cEDH commander, but doesn't really do anything problematic in normal commander - I wouldn't care. Of course I acknowledge that his power level in cEDH is part of the discussion, but it's not really the part I'm concerned with (nor the part that should be relevant to banlist discussion imo). And it's not the format to which I directed my initial comment.

That said, I do keep my ear to the ground, especially as regards the nadu discourse. I don't see many people bringing up the power and toughness on cEDH reddit.

Interesting. yeti's comment was discussing Nadu's implications, statline and power level specifically within a cEDH context. So while your original comment was talking about EDH as a whole and Nadu's stats being mediocre in a more casual setting (which I agree with), our discussion here is about Nadu's specific impacts on cEDH. Which kinda leads me to my next point...

I'm of the opinion cEDH has in fact impacted the banlist discussion in recent memory. Of course I'm not fully privy to all the backroom talk, but I'm pretty sure Flash was rebanned probably in significant measure due to cEDH considerations/complaints. Anecdotally, I heard zero complaints about it in "casual" EDH on Discords and MTGNexus, but it dominated the cEDH discussion boards and Discords. Hullbreacher was also strongly advocated against by cEDH players, which I'm sure added an additional layer of justification for its ban.

I like to think that cEDH players are generally like the weathervane of appropriate, bannable cards: if the most cutthroat and optimized players are saying it's a problem, it probably is and going to be.

Everything I'm seeing on cEDH reddit, and from darrenhabib's exploits, indicates to me that in cEDH Nadu cannot be allowed to exist on the board for any length of time if the game isn't going to end. For that matter, you yourself (on this thread and others) are saying that he needs to be removed immediately.

I'll maybe buy that, on rare occasions, a Tymna player might want to hit the Nadu player for an extra card (and the other players aren't open and are unwilling to take a hit to help the Tymna player find removal for the Nadu, or are already being hit by other creatures). But if we're talking about Nadu attacking, either we've got a resolved lightning greaves + Nadu (which seems like game over) or he survived an entire trip around the table, which also sounds like game over. Obviously bad draws can happen, so it's not impossible that Nadu could somehow have no enablers to go off with (or no other creatures to move greaves onto), but this seems like an extremely niche case.

Yes, I do think Nadu should and must be removed immediately if you want to maximize your chances of winning. And I've personally built my decklists to include more hard creature removal and more hard counterspells so I have options against creatures. But the interesting truth about cEDH generally is that Nadu won't die (if it resolves) because of the structure of the format and decklist construction choices, which were my original point.

I think yeti's follow-up comment captures my own observations nicely:

Very few of the cEDH games I've played have ended in the first 3 turns... but I'm also playing a ton of free interaction to try and push the game longer.

Removal is criminally underplayed in cEDH, which is an issue. Board wipes and other effects that would remove Nadu are hardly seen.

If Nadu were a 1/3, a 2/2, or even a 2/3, if would be solid, but not quite as resilient and versatile. They made Nadu a very efficient creature, then gave it some crazy abilities that don't care whether it's tapped or in combat or not.

My experience vs Nadu in a half-dozen games or so has been that Nadu doesn't necessarily win if it survives a turn cycle--there's points of interaction to slow it down...such as Fourth Bridge Prowlering their Seeker of Skybreak the turn before. It represents a lot of card advantage, but can be kind of durdly on the way to a win. Also, the issue with calling out countermagic as the removal of choice ignores that a) Nadu may well come down t1 before players have the ability to interact on the stack, b) there are very few free counterspells that hit creatures, and c) holding up 2+ mana to counter Nadu instead of progressing your own gameplan may be just as bad, from a winning perspective, as letting it resolve.

I've, personally, not had too tough a time vs Nadu, because I'm running way more removal than is typical for cEDH, and a few pieces of that don't target, but there's still the issue of needing to throw so many resources at one creature/commander meaning you have fewer for the other 2 players.

Whatever the discussion, I think there's strong merit for Nadu being banned. It reminds me significantly of Paradox Engine in how it non-deterministically eats through a ton of your library and vomits out a ton of resources for free (if built correctly) and consumes a ton of game time while 1 player essentially solitaires. It also significantly puts the player controlling Nadu into an almost unassailable position of advantage if Nadu somehow "whiffs". I do think the cEDH meta will adapt to it and make it less objectionable in time, but ironically I think it will be by trying to go even faster into their win conditions. I expect a higher representation of Naus/Naus-like decks to rise to accommodate this change (since it's unlikely Nadu will actually get banned).

[CommanderMaster999]

Here we go again

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"Gift" is a weird mechanic it basically do a group hug kicker cost, I wonder if this means group hug is a theme in bloomburrow it would explain the bant precon being group hug, oh and for the card if your doing a flicker deck with this you win either way gift, exile a indestructible creature, no gift slow flicker your creature or anti-theft.



😳…. Is that even possible? They actually made a storm card in standard it's the ultimate emblem of otter ral, and it's very reasonable to pull off since it has Nissa of Shadowed Boughs static ability but in the form of casting noncreature spells, so if it's your opponents you got to remove it quick…especially because they may have a Doubling Season/Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider effect in play or a Deepglow Skate ready in hand

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[Dunadain]

Modern Izzet storm bout to become Izzet superfriends

[DirkGently]

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Gift is interesting. The rules text is kind of a mess in order to force the player to decide whether gifting is happening on cast rather than on resolution.

Obviously it's stronger in multiplayer than 1v1, but I'm still dubious it'll be good. As a general rule, I don't want to be forced to give gifts in order to do other things I want to do - I want to give gifts on their own. Otherwise it's much harder to use them as a way to broker favors, since you can't necessarily wait until the right moment. Also Parting Gust is a pretty mid removal spell at this point, we've got quite a bit of 2-mana removal with more flexibility. But we'll see, there's definitely some potential.

Ral just looks annoying. Really wish we could pump some drugs into the water supply that suppressed the overwhelming desire some people seem to have towards storm decks.

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I'm generally talking about cEDH from a Yuriko perspective, where FBP is a fantastic card, but I've seen some other cards that care about stats come up. There are -2/-2 and even some -3/-3 effects floating around. I've run Crippling Fear on and off, for example. I've seen Cut Down. I'm currently running Spinning Darkness.

Stuff like lightning bolt comes up on rare occasions - hence 99% and not 100%.

I don't think I've seen any of those cards played irl (though their usage rates on EDHrec do indicate that someone is playing them - maybe it's just cEDH though, idk).

Yeah. All of this. a 3/4 is HUGE in cEDH. Flying as well. Nadu doesn't use its own life much, but the commander makes it very difficult to pressure life as well. Nadu is free to play Gilded Drake without having to worry about getting hit with the 3/3 flyer afterwards.

I have a really hard time reconciling the "cEDH needs to run more removal because Nadu needs to die immediately" argument with the "it's relevant that Nadu can prevent a 3-damage attack" argument.

Removal with an almost 0 opportunity cost

I wouldn't consider a 1 mana 1/1 with no other abilities to be "almost zero opportunity cost".

It can also be used politically alongside other attackers when known info: if you block my 1-power dude with your 2-toughness dude, I will play this and kill your 2-toughness dude after combat. Or, you play it before combat and force them to make the choice of blocking and losing their creature or letting it through.

How is that political? If it works just the same as in 1v1 magic, I don't see how the word "political" is on the table.

while your original comment was talking about EDH as a whole and Nadu's stats being mediocre in a more casual setting (which I agree with), our discussion here is about Nadu's specific impacts on cEDH.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying his stats are mediocre, they're objectively above curve, they just aren't very relevant to dictating his strength.

But more importantly, our discussion was not about nadu's impacts on cEDH. Or at least, that's not where I directed my original comment, and not the place where I care about Nadu's impact. I thought I'd made that pretty clear by now. I'm not an expert on cEDH and I have little desire to become one. Y'all took my comment and ran with it into cEDH land, and that's not a place I ever wanted to go.

I'm of the opinion cEDH has in fact impacted the banlist discussion in recent memory.

They said it was because of cEDH - it's not a matter of opinion.

Personally I think it was the wrong move, and sent a bad message.

I like to think that cEDH players are generally like the weathervane of appropriate, bannable cards: if the most cutthroat and optimized players are saying it's a problem, it probably is and going to be.

I don't buy it. Flash was not a problem in casual tables and was never going to be. And all the cEDH players I see whining on reddit tend to say that non-flash banned cards shouldn't be banned, paradox engine in particular. I see basically no relation between what cEDH players have a problem with, and what causes problems in normal commander games.

There is some alignment on the Nadu question, but I don't think cEDH players are the lone canary in the coalmine - we've got a coalmine packed full of canaries on every point of the competitive spectrum. If anything I think I see the highest proportion on don't-ban advocates on the cEDH side.

[RxPhantom]

cEDH needs its own banlist, regulatory body, blah blah blah.

[Dunadain]

Well then it wouldn't be cEDH.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

cEDH needs its own banlist, regulatory body, blah blah blah.

Well then it wouldn't be cEDH.

Is French 1v1 Duel Commander not EDH then? I'd argue it is, despite the drastic differences. There is no functional difference between Duel Commander's unique rules and bans and a sufficiently stringent set of house rules set under Rule 0.

[Dunadain]

Is French 1v1 Duel Commander not EDH then? I'd argue it is, despite the drastic differences. There is no functional difference between Duel Commander's unique rules and bans and a sufficiently stringent set of house rules set under Rule 0.

I don't really consider French Commander EDH.

If French Commander is EDH, then every 60 card format is the same format.

I don't mean this in a "French Commander is not REAL commander" way. The formats share enough similarities to fall under the same umbrella. But if we're talking about competitive play, they are clearly different.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Is French 1v1 Duel Commander not EDH then? I'd argue it is, despite the drastic differences. There is no functional difference between Duel Commander's unique rules and bans and a sufficiently stringent set of house rules set under Rule 0.

I don't really consider French Commander EDH.

If French Commander is EDH, then every 60 card format is the same format.

I don't mean this in a "French Commander is not REAL commander" way. The formats share enough similarities to fall under the same umbrella. But if we're talking about competitive play, they are clearly different.

I'd say EDH is defined more by the presence of the command zone more than a specific banlist or ruleset. If it has a commander, it's commander (unless it's brawl, whatever).

[DirkGently]

cEDH needs its own banlist, regulatory body, blah blah blah.

As much as I want to agree on a gut level, in reality there will always be someone who is trying to make the strongest possible deck in the format, no matter how many times you tell them that the format is best when not abused.

If cEDH had a different banlist, there would still be people building the strongest possible deck in normal EDH, but then we wouldn't have a nice distinction for them to cordon them off the the rest of the format.