Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Ruiner]

It's nice that they have finally updated their card template/wording with Nine-Lives Familiar, so going forward all of these cards just say "This creature . . .". Should hopefully clear up confusion some newer people have when you use some clone and copy effects like Sakashima the Impostor and an ability refers to the specific card name.

Also like the change going forward for all enchantments to get the Theros treatment on their border.

[TheGildedGoose]

Bird Wizards.
Bird Rogues.
Bird Clerics.

Is 2024 the year of avian supremacy? Will bird, in fact, be the word?

[Dunadain]

It's nice that they have finally updated their card template/wording with Nine-Lives Familiar, so going forward all of these cards just say "This creature . . .". Should hopefully clear up confusion some newer people have when you use some clone and copy effects like Sakashima the Impostor and an ability refers to the specific card name.

Also like the change going forward for all enchantments to get the Theros treatment on their border.

Yeah, as someone that's always ragged on how unnecessarily wordy magic cards can be, they've been making a lot of steps forward this past year or so. Finality counters, switching enters the battlefield to just enters, and now using "this creature", instead of writing the name over and over again.

Good job Wotc

[Venedrex]

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[materpillar]

I'm gonna be the stickler here I guess. Not a fan of Duskmorne. I prefer mtg sets to stay cozy in fantasy. Chainsaw just feels out of place.

On a slightly different note, changelings gonna get a massive pile of pushed typal cards again. Salvation Swan looks turbo busted with Changelings. Each Changeling you cast can immediately blink itself to gain flying and double trigger your Risen Reef and friends.

[5colorsrainbow]

I prefer mtg sets to stay cozy in fantasy.

I get what you mean here but I wanna fight back against this idea high/epic fantasy is the only kinda of fantasy sub-genre. I feel like its very dismissive of the wider things you can find in the genre and limits to what fantasy as genre can.

[heridfel]

The problem I have with seeing cards like Chainsaw is Magic feeling more and more generic. I have no problem with Innistrad or even The Dark if we want to have horror themes within the broader Magic universe. This feels like a UB set which got made into a bona fide Magic plane. If we end up with a card where a creature is crawling out of an old television screen, I would be wholly unsurprised.

This is coming the same year where we had Magic, the spaghetti Western, and multiple UB sets which have had their supernatural elements much more strongly themed towards science fiction than fantasy. I understand materpillar's feelings.

[folding_music]

it's way too late to stuff the multiverse-ness of MTG back inna bag and there's no reason why different planes should be experiencing contemporary levels of technology or civilization, eg, see Kaldheim then see Neo Kamigawa. and frankly I wish MTG had less recurring characters so that, every time you travelled to a new plane, it'd be fundamentally different with no anchoring factors.

basically mmm I embrace Chainsaw but reject plausible fantasy stuff from other properties, even ones I like eg. 40k, because then you sort of have a hyperverse and that's one dimension too far to keep things coherent; you enter the "you just hate fun" dimension by introducing alicorns, tom baker etc. whatever context or meaning yr hypnotic specter had to you dissolves when Guile from Streets sonic booms it

edit: although I embrace M:TG's inclusion of Jeremy Corbyn

[5colorsrainbow]

The problem I have with seeing cards like Chainsaw is Magic feeling more and more generic. I have no problem with Innistrad or even The Dark if we want to have horror themes within the broader Magic universe. This feels like a UB set which got made into a bona fide Magic plane. If we end up with a card where a creature is crawling out of an old television screen, I would be wholly unsurprised.

How is this set any more UB than Innistrad?

[materpillar]

I prefer mtg sets to stay cozy in fantasy.

I get what you mean here but I wanna fight back against this idea high/epic fantasy is the only kinda of fantasy sub-genre. I feel like its very dismissive of the wider things you can find in the genre and limits to what fantasy as genre can.

Yeah, I'm ok with other flavors of fantasy. Innistrad is awesome and it's definitely not high fantasy.

I'm just not a fan of guns, electricity and modern science mixing with fantasy knights.

[RxPhantom]

The world of Duskmourn is evocative and interesting, but the modernity element is a little off-putting. I don't know enough to judge, but I'm cautiously...ummm...undecided???

[Wallycaine]

I prefer mtg sets to stay cozy in fantasy.

I get what you mean here but I wanna fight back against this idea high/epic fantasy is the only kinda of fantasy sub-genre. I feel like its very dismissive of the wider things you can find in the genre and limits to what fantasy as genre can.

Yeah, I'm ok with other flavors of fantasy. Innistrad is awesome and it's definitely not high fantasy.

I'm just not a fan of guns, electricity and modern science mixing with fantasy knights.

Honest question: Do you consider Sword of Shannara or Dragonriders of Pern series fantasy? Both of those involve a similar setup of "this world used to be technologically advanced, but has been destroyed and left technological remnants behind" that Duskmourn is using.

[heridfel]

The problem I have with seeing cards like Chainsaw is Magic feeling more and more generic. I have no problem with Innistrad or even The Dark if we want to have horror themes within the broader Magic universe. This feels like a UB set which got made into a bona fide Magic plane. If we end up with a card where a creature is crawling out of an old television screen, I would be wholly unsurprised.

How is this set any more UB than Innistrad?

The art for this set has video monitors and kids/people wearing sneakers. Its description notes that it follows modern horror tropes. Innistrad's entire story is tied to planeswalkers and fantasy races such as angels, vampires, and werewolves which have been a part of Magic since Alpha and Legends.

Is there anything you would consider distinctively "Magic" in flavor? If the only thing which defines Universes Beyond for you is that it uses another company's trademarks (or WotC's own in the case of D&D), then we will have to agree to disagree.

[5colorsrainbow]

I'm just not a fan of guns, electricity and modern science mixing with fantasy knights.

Thats fine, my point more is mixing more modern elements won't negate something being fantasy.

The problem I have with seeing cards like Chainsaw is Magic feeling more and more generic. I have no problem with Innistrad or even The Dark if we want to have horror themes within the broader Magic universe. This feels like a UB set which got made into a bona fide Magic plane. If we end up with a card where a creature is crawling out of an old television screen, I would be wholly unsurprised.

How is this set any more UB than Innistrad?

The art for this set has video monitors and kids/people wearing sneakers. Its description notes that it follows modern horror tropes. Innistrad's entire story is tied to planeswalkers and fantasy races such as angels, vampires, and werewolves which have been a part of Magic since Alpha and Legends.

From the planeswalker guide we also got demons, ghosts, horrors and scarecrows among the monsters which are all pretty rooted within magic. And while we don't know more about survivors yet, one survivors art clearly shows an elf, also among mtg staple fantasy creatures.

The world of Duskmourn also connects touches on the multiverse with its worldbuilding, being effected by the Phyrexia Invasion and features a number of (desparked) planeswalkers and other major legends from magics lore and history as the central protagonists.

Is there anything you would consider distinctively "Magic" in flavor? If the only thing which defines Universes Beyond for you is that it uses another company's trademarks (or WotC's own in the case of D&D), then we will have to agree to disagree.

1- The color pie which is reflected in the loose zones within the house.

2- The above mentioned world building heavily using magics multiverse lore in going over how a demon folded a plane into its haunted house prison and "pushed" the spirit world to the edges of the blind eternities and the ghosts of the planes are the dead who can squeeze through the "cracks" of the house.

3- That the technology running on magic, this case the magic on the plane manifesting as tv lost signal static which is what stuff runs on. Zimone also being a wizard and spellcaster ties it back to Magics magic.

4- Again have to wait and see but the elf survivor points to likely other humanoid Magic creatures.

5- The trope of the present day people using uncovering ancient tech from a magical lost times is part of Urza's origins story being echo'd here.

6- Again using characters connected to magics past.

[darrenhabib]

Bloomburrow looks like an actual casual set so far. I'm a sucker for the art and cool looking little critters, I'm an animal person at heart.
I think this should be a good set for getting younger people into Magic and could be a nice break from the power creep problem that Wizards feels forced into to sell sets and instead the flavor will help sales instead.

[DirkGently]

I'll jump on @materpillars side and say I'm not really digging the Evil Dead vibe I'm getting from Duskmourne. It's not that I don't think magic should use more modern settings, neo tokyo was fine, because it still felt fantastical in the sense that it felt different from the real world. But things like chainsaws, monitors, and sneakers, in the way they're portrayed in the cards revealed so far, feel too rooted in reality to feel like the same type of fantasy imo.

Obviously Evil Dead is also fantastical in a sense (unless you're the sort of person who watches ghost hunter shows unironically), and urban fantasy is a thing (I'm arguably writing a book in the genre), but it's not the same type of fantasy. I guess I'd argue that fantasy is defined in some respects by how far it diverges from reality, and most of MtGs history has felt a pretty consistent distance away while Duskmourne feels much closer. Sure, we get an Egyptian-themed set, but the existence of an Egypt-like civilization is a lot easier to imagine occurring in an alternate reality by coincidence, versus a coincidental confluence of events leading to the development of identical-to-the-real-world-looking rubber-soled fabric-covered mass-produced bleached-white footwear, in a world that ostensibly has completely different rules from ours vis-a-vis magic.

Also how is FOMO a card. I can't even make flavor sense of it. And it feels like decade-old slang. Maybe it's just me but I rarely hear anyone use it anymore. Very hello-fellow-kids.

That said, while I like some good flavor, I'm a mechanics guy first and foremost, so as long as it's not UB it's fine, whatever.

[5colorsrainbow]

I'll jump on @materpillars side and say I'm not really digging the Evil Dead vibe I'm getting from Duskmourne. It's not that I don't think magic should use more modern settings, neo tokyo was fine, because it still felt fantastical in the sense that it felt different from the real world. But things like chainsaws, monitors, and sneakers, in the way they're portrayed in the cards revealed so far, feel too rooted in reality to feel like the same type of fantasy imo.

I mean that was my point, the fantasy genre is big and it is limiting it to just say its only for certain time periods and tech levels. You can (dis)like any of the sub-genres but as you said still fantasy, just not the same type.

Obviously Evil Dead is also fantastical in a sense (unless you're the sort of person who watches ghost hunter shows unironically), and urban fantasy is a thing (I'm arguably writing a book in the genre), but it's not the same type of fantasy. I guess I'd argue that fantasy is defined in some respects by how far it diverges from reality, and most of MtGs history has felt a pretty consistent distance away while Duskmourne feels much closer. Sure, we get an Egyptian-themed set, but the existence of an Egypt-like civilization is a lot easier to imagine occurring in an alternate reality by coincidence, versus a coincidental confluence of events leading to the development of identical-to-the-real-world-looking rubber-soled fabric-covered mass-produced bleached-white footwear, in a world that ostensibly has completely different rules from ours vis-a-vis magic.

-shrugs- most literally scholars can't find a clear definitions of fantasy vs sci fi. Personally for me its if a setting has supernatural or fantastical/magical elements its fantasy, if it has "advanced technology" then its Sci fi and often things can be both. And the vibes. As MtG is a game all about using magic I'd say its fantasy that sometimes has sci fi elements since each plane is its own sub-genre of fantasy.

Personally what helps for me and all this is the fact all the 80's tech is a fun twist on "lost technological remnants of an past civilizations", like all technology in Magic it runs on magic and the tech most of the time is being used for purposes it wasn't mean too (ie the screens and monitors are mostly used to trap ghosts vs traditional tv).

Also how is FOMO a card. I can't even make flavor sense of it. And it feels like decade-old slang. Maybe it's just me but I rarely hear anyone use it anymore. Very hello-fellow-kids.

Fear of missing out of experiences and living a boring life, which is why I think it's a red nightmare. That said I think this card leans a lot more into the meme with the real fear being enough I think it can be justified.

[materpillar]

Honest question: Do you consider Sword of Shannara or Dragonriders of Pern series fantasy? Both of those involve a similar setup of "this world used to be technologically advanced, but has been destroyed and left technological remnants behind" that Duskmourn is using.

I haven't read either of those series in like 20 years so I can't offer much of an opinion. I like The Dresden Files a lot though. That's just a wizard and every fantasy trope + fairytale possible walking around modern day Chicago.

Now I'm going to suffer from "why doesn't Jace bring a chainsaw/TV/whatever modern gadget back to whatever other plane that would be massively improved by modern gadgets. I could ignore that with like Space Marine Devastator and what not because those aren't "cannon" so to speak.

[onering]

Guys, we've hit the "Why doesn't Harry Potter just shoot Voldemort" phase of magic..


The flavor, and story, is dead. It's garbage, and UB killed it. This new haunted house set looks very stupid from a flavor and story perspective, but it doesn't really matter because Magic story and flavor don't matter anymore. Does anybody care about what happened in Outlaws of Thunder Junction? I heard it was stupid, but the whole idea of the plane was stupid so who cares.

I no longer have any attachment to Magic as anything more than a game. The story ended with Teferi back in Zhalfir and what's left is just generic crap that could be swapped out with someone's OCs from deviantart and it would make no difference. In some ways, it's kind of like a return to Alpha and Arabian Nights. Vorthos has left the building.

[5colorsrainbow]

Now I'm going to suffer from "why doesn't Jace bring a chainsaw/TV/whatever modern gadget back to whatever other plane that would be massively improved by modern gadgets. I could ignore that with like Space Marine Devastator and what not because those aren't "cannon" so to speak.

So far all of most of Magic's tech runs on planar specific sources that makes it hard to use on other planes long term without that tech being adapted to it. While not impossible someone like Jace like wouldn't likely be able to use one longer term but someone like Saheeli could (and we are seeing some now with her moving to Ixalan and making robots for the Sun Empire).

[DirkGently]

I mean that was my point, the fantasy genre is big and it is limiting it to just say its only for certain time periods and tech levels. You can (dis)like any of the sub-genres but as you said still fantasy, just not the same type.

If they did a fantasy plane that was 80s-ish in terms of how far up the tech tree they'd gotten, but felt more alternate universe in terms of the specific tech they had, it wouldn't chafe as much for me. All the existing planes have felt, to me, as distinctly otherworldly, even when they have similarities to real world time periods and/or locations. The art I've seen from duskmourne thus far doesn't have that same feel for me, it feels much closer to the real world.

It's not about time periods or tech, it's about whether it feels like an alternate universe or not. Evil Dead doesn't take place in an alternate universe (at least, no moreso than any piece of fiction does). Magic does, so it should feel like it imo.

-shrugs- most literally scholars can't find a clear definitions of fantasy vs sci fi. Personally for me its if a setting has supernatural or fantastical/magical elements its fantasy, if it has "advanced technology" then its Sci fi and often things can be both. And the vibes. As MtG is a game all about using magic I'd say its fantasy that sometimes has sci fi elements since each plane is its own sub-genre of fantasy.

I don't care whether it's fantasy or sci-fi, I already said I was fine with kamigawa. My point is that it should feel like an alternative reality to a similar degree as other planes have.

You say "well their TVs run on maaaagic" or whatever, but I'm not reading the lore. I'm just looking at the art, and the art just looks like a normal TV.

Fear of missing out of experiences and living a boring life, which is why I think it's a red nightmare. That said I think this card leans a lot more into the meme with the real fear being enough I think it can be justified.

When I think fear so powerful it was made manifest into an evil spirit, "oh no, everyone went to the concert without me" doesn't really get there for me.

It's just cringe. Way too on the nose. Imo if the card was "fear of mediocrity" or something, and then the flavor text was "all his life he feared the opportunities he missed out on, until it drove him to nightmarish insanity" or whatever, then it would be a cute wink and nod, rather than having the subtlety of a frying pan to the face.

[folding_music]

horror is mostly satire and social commentary imo
fear of missing out slots in nicely

Ice Age is still the most compelling dark setting and they'll never beat it but FOMO is smart

[DirkGently]

horror is mostly satire and social commentary imo

I'm curious how any magic set could be considered satire or social commentary. For that matter, what is the card FOMO a commentary on besides "this is a thing people say sometimes"? Best English-major attempt I could make would be "it's saying that we worry so much about FOMO it could be portrayed as a literal nightmare", but you'd think if the goal was to illustrate us blowing it out of proportion, it could be bigger than a 2/3...that's a pretty minor nightmare compared to plenty of other cards. I honestly don't think the creative process went any further than "we're running out of ideas for fear-incarnated creatures, and people like (and therefore might buy) memes".

[folding_music]

i see. did you watch Candyman and say, ah, this is about people afraid of being cut with knives giggle

edit: what i meant to say is that horror explores environments and systems by anthromorphosising their symptoms. fear of missing out as a metaphorical killer is totally at home in a horror setting cos its stuck in there alongside gentrification as a killer, peer pressure as a killer etc

[heridfel]

And none of that has anything to do with Magic. If I see a black or black and blue card called "Gentrification" as part of a horror-themed set, that will probably be the final push I need to quit paying any attention to a game that I have played off and on for 30 years. These days, I am mainly getting a single or two for my sole, non-cEDH deck which I keep up to remind me of the fun I had playing Stompy ~20 years ago. I rarely even get to play it; it's just the fun of imagining what it would be like to smash face with Thrun, Breaker of Silence with Staff of Titania or Blackblade Reforged.

I sometimes see people ask whether the existence of new cards lessens the fun of playing with the cards I already have, with the implication that I should let people play what they enjoy and vice versa. Cards like Fear of Missing Out and Cursed Recording do lessen my fun because their flavor is at odds with the flavor that Magic established over its first twenty years.