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Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:28 am
by Ulka
So I was browsing through some old card boxes and found a card,
Praetor's Grasp which lead me to look over the New Phyrexia Block as a whole and I stumbled upon
Mitotic Manipulation once again in my edh brewing life. I'm curious what peoples thoughts are if you were in a Mono blue and treating this card like a
Rampant Growth assuming you have 30 basic islands (snow covered or not).
Things that could be found off it or used to abuse the card:
Persistent Petitioners
Spy Kit
Clone effects
Thada Adel, Acquisitor and other Theft effects
Island
Why these corner cases could be useful I think its most effective use is the
Rampant Growth but it leads me to my main question on this thought experiment:
Does Mitotic Manipulation seem worth it or is it best left for the bulk box from once my copy came?
My answer to my own question is realistically If my blue deck has 34 islands and several clone effects, it might be worth it given that artifact ramp is easy to remove.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:47 am
by Toshi
That's an interesting thought!
While
Rampant Growth might be the poster boy of said effect, i think
Untamed Wilds should be the appropriate comparison. You know, CMC 3, untapped Basic and no other modes. In green
Untamed Wilds isn't necessarily bad, but most certainly outclassed by dozens of spells (and dorks). Outside of green it would be a rock solid card. But, the way
Mitotic Manipulation is worded its a steep downhill once you add additional colors, so i'd only consider it mono blue decks.
My
Talrand, Sky Summoner deck runs 30/34
Islands, so real bad luck aside, it would basically compete with 3 drop rocks there. While it's sub-optimal not being able to ramp on turn two, to drop my commander early, basics are a lot less prone to getting taken out in comparison and it would still trigger my commander when played after it. So overall i'd say it would be an unusual, yet viable include.
Hoping that
Mitotic Manipulation hits something off of an opponents board is borderline ridiculous, i think. You're a mono deck, in a color that most players run for nonpermanent spells and chances are there's not even another blue deck in your pod. Hitting your own
Sol Ring with it would be a memorable play though.
I could see myself running it in an
Ambassador Laquatus,
Bruvac the Grandiloquent or
Teferi, Temporal Archmage Persistent Petitioners build or a
Baral, Chief of Compliance deck that wants to make most of his cost reduction.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:31 am
by Serenade
I don't think it's realistic to run that many basics in mono.
I think it works best with
Scroll Rack, but I think I'd rather run
Skyclave Relic here instead.
If somehow you get this to work as something other than ramp (using
Spy Kit), consider
Retraced Image as well. It's either a one-shot
Burgeoning or something a little crazier.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:53 pm
by Sinis
I think it's an open question if mono-blue is okay with ghetto
Untamed Wilds. If you're running a lot of islands for other reasons (like
Vedalken Shackles,
Scourge of Fleets,
Flow of Ideas or land-specific doublers, etc.) it could be worth it, because Island density makes it more viable and because you
want more Islands.
Obligatory
Spy Kit mention as well.
I think this (and
Retraced Image) is probably better in 60x4, though. I have playsets of both and have been dying to build/play them in something, but nobody I know plays 60x4 anymore.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:23 pm
by Hawk
The difference between two mana and three is vast when it comes to ramp. If your deck isn't interested in
Darksteel Ingot and
Commander's Sphere it probably isn't interested in this.
That's the snarky response, but I'm still surprised to see it at just 177 decks. It is legitimately "better" than a 3-mana rock in a deck where islands matter (like
Charix, the Raging Isle) or where instants and sorceries matter (like mono-blue Wizard tribal,
Talrand, Sky Summoner,
Baral, Chief of Compliance,
God-Eternal Kefnet) or where you are doing an attack of the clones deck or utilizing
Persistent Petitioners as in
Bruvac the Grandiloquent) and that covers a full half of the top 15 most popular mono-blue Commanders.
All that to say - it's very niche, but certainly not unplayable. I think comparing it to
Rampant Growth is wrong. In terms of playability, it's less like the ol'
Concentrate versus
Harmonize comparison and more like
Lead the Stampede versus
Divination (or as noted, this versus
Untamed Wilds or
Natural Connection) - you are comparing a card that requires a ton of hoops to work but delivers an effect this color can't get normally to the absolute worst effect in the color that monopolizes it. Lead sees play in 1000 decks because it can still be good but it requires a very specific set-up; I think we should help get Mitotic somewhere closer to that
.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:03 pm
by ilovesaprolings
I mean if you really want to ramp in monoblue that much, just use
Dreamscape Artist? Mitotic Manipulation seems extremely unreliable.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:16 pm
by darrenhabib
What an interesting find!
You are almost guaranteed to hit an Island in a mono blue deck, and when you compare casting say a
Darksteel Ingot,
Mana Geode,
Commander's Sphere which a lot of people will play on a budgets, then
Mitotic Manipulation can put in some more value than these if you run other certain cards.
You can use it with
Brainstorm to put cards you don't want onto the bottom of library.
It will go better with
High Tide than a 3 mana artifact in most cases.
Honestly I think it's an option for people on a budget. It is probably not going to make slightly higher tier deck list, but if you are in the market for mana sources at 3 mana and you want more resilience than artifacts because your meta is artifact destroying crazy (which can happen) then a great little find.
I could see this being in a budget
High Tide list for sure.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:51 pm
by MeowZeDung
I liked it in my izzet
Seven Dwarves deck since it almost always either ramped or got me another dwarf.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:37 pm
by ISBPathfinder
@Ulka Try
Savor the Moment instead, its blue
Explore for one more mana. Sure you don't untap, but it replaces itself in hand, lets you play another land, and if you have any sort of walkers or something that
triggers every turn you get that too.
Savor the Moment really is three mana
Explore with potential for a few other cool synergies. Another cool thing that
Savor the Moment can do is sort of tag haste onto things for three mana as even though you don't untap you do push off summoning sickness.
Mitotic Manipulation forces you to try to be basic heavy which is throwing away a big benefit of being mono color which is being able to stack in more utility lands. You probably could still run it with utility lands but I often run something like 15-18 non basic lands in mono color decks so I feel like I probably would have to sacrifice some on that front to justify
Mitotic Manipulation.
Savor the Moment lets you keep your sweet utility lands and still ramp.
There are always the
Time Warp and friends too.... I just felt like a lot of people overlook the sweet card that is
Savor the Moment. Lots of people are also unwilling to burn extra turns as soon as possible as ramp. There is also a bit of the feels bad situation with extra turns but I feel like
Savor the Moment removes some level of that by not untapping lands and making it hard to do 2x combats in a row (would need vigilance).
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:20 am
by Treamayne
Ulka wrote: ↑3 years ago
Does Mitotic Manipulation seem worth it or is it best left for the bulk box from whence my copy came?
.
I would not necessarily call it "bulk" but I would call it niche. I think 30+ islands is rare in mono-blue (the only exception I easily recall is
high tide combo - usually with
Palinchron and /or
Memnarch), but I do think the best use I have seen
Mitotic Manipulation put to was a Wizard deck with
Information Dealer. Token copies and clone effects make meeting the trigger a bit easier, and the dealer like to dig.
I also considered MM for my Sydri Vehicle deck, if only because it likes having
Mirrorworks to make artifact copies, as well as sacrificing the artifacts for profit. I thought if I could recur from GY to ToL, this might come in handy. It got cut however, since there just were not enough
Academy Ruins effects to support.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:44 pm
by Dragoon
How does clone effects work with
Mitotic Manipulation?
Clone is named "Clone" everywhere other than the battlefield and has the name as the copied creature once it hits the battlefield. I don't see how running cloning effects help in any way with
Mitotic Manipulation, am I missing something?
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:36 pm
by Hawk
Dragoon wrote: ↑3 years ago
How does clone effects work with
Mitotic Manipulation?
Clone is named "Clone" everywhere other than the battlefield and has the name as the copied creature once it hits the battlefield. I don't see how running cloning effects help in any way with
Mitotic Manipulation, am I missing something?
I think the idea is that if you
Clone an opponents
Consecrated Sphinx or
Phyrexian Metamorph their
Sol Ring you now have more hits in your own library, but that's a pretty niche and narrow synergy.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:50 pm
by Dragoon
Hawk wrote: ↑3 years ago
Dragoon wrote: ↑3 years ago
How does clone effects work with
Mitotic Manipulation?
Clone is named "Clone" everywhere other than the battlefield and has the name as the copied creature once it hits the battlefield. I don't see how running cloning effects help in any way with
Mitotic Manipulation, am I missing something?
I think the idea is that if you
Clone an opponents
Consecrated Sphinx or
Phyrexian Metamorph their
Sol Ring you now have more hits in your own library, but that's a pretty niche and narrow synergy.
But
Mitotic Manipulation doesn't care about who controls the permanent.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
by darrenhabib
The card has even more uses in that you can use top of library tutors to line up with cards that opponents might have played and you have your own versions in the deck.
Worldly Tutor,
Vampiric Tutor,
Enlightened Tutor, etc.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:36 pm
by Ulka
Wow I never expected to get this type of discussion on this card. You are all right in that it much more of a
Untamed Wilds than
Rampant Growth. I used rampant as the example as it was the first card that popped into my head when thinking on this topic. as to why not use
Dreamscape Artist? Mostly because it is fragile to removal.
I do understand 30 islands is a lot but I know in my own monoblue deck I currently play 38 lands 30 of which are islands so stats wise it plays similar. So im glad im not alone thinking its a niche card but has some merits. I not really want to test a
Jalira, Master Polymorphist deck where I run a decent amount of clone effect and
Spy Kit to mess with its ability to grab fatties out of my deck but I do think that I will be needing to test
Retraced Image and
Savor the Moment both as ramp cards In monoblue.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:36 pm
by Dragoon
This I can see the synergy, but I just don't see the interaction with clone effects...
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:37 am
by Treamayne
Dragoon wrote: ↑3 years ago
This I can see the synergy, but I just don't see the interaction with clone effects...
When I have seen it used with a clone effect, it was for free-casting multiples of <something>. For example, a mill deck I played against on MTGO used
Body Double to copy his milled
Palinchron. A turn or three later, when his GY was threatened, he used
Volrath's Stronghold to send the original to the top of his library, then used
Mitotic Manipulation (MM) to drop it on the battlefield (starting his inf mana shenanigans with other clone effects).
I've also seen somebody playing a clone deck dodge exile removal with
Whisk Away, then MM the original back to the battlefield (likely not why whisk away was in the deck, but an interesting play at the time).
As I said before, it's very niche. But if, for some reason, your deck wants to use MM type effects to play multiple copies of fatties for free; it is an option.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:47 am
by darrenhabib
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:42 am
by Mookie
Arguably yes, but it depends somewhat on the deck. Grazer and Pioneer have incidental upside due to being creatures - they can attack, block, carry equipment, be sacrificed for value, etc. Perhaps most importantly, they can also trigger
Glimpse of Nature effects. There are blue cards that can benefit from casting instants and sorceries, such as
Niv-Mizzet, Parun and
Metallurgic Summonings... but those are a bit less common than green's synergies. As a result, I would say that Retraced Image is worse in a vacuum due to the lower floor.
....on the other hand, green also has waaaay more options for ramp than blue does, so Retraced Image goes up in value slightly as a result due to uniqueness. Context matters a lot here.
Re: Mitotic Manipulation; MonoBlue's Rampant Growth?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:03 am
by darrenhabib
Mookie wrote: ↑3 years ago
Arguably yes, but it depends somewhat on the deck. Grazer and Pioneer have incidental upside due to being creatures - they can attack, block, carry equipment, be sacrificed for value, etc. Perhaps most importantly, they can also trigger
Glimpse of Nature effects. There are blue cards that can benefit from casting instants and sorceries, such as
Niv-Mizzet, Parun and
Metallurgic Summonings... but those are a bit less common than green's synergies. As a result, I would say that Retraced Image is worse in a vacuum due to the lower floor.
....on the other hand, green also has waaaay more options for ramp than blue does, so Retraced Image goes up in value slightly as a result due to uniqueness. Context matters a lot here.
You can also potentially put a
Blightsteel Colossus into play, so I would arguably say more upside. Now I'm not saying you will, but it is theoretically possible.