Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[pokken]

If they make a separate cedh there will always be people who refuse to leave :D. Took me a while to clock that but it helped me understand why they are inseparable.

Competitive edh is whatever the highest power stuff you can do in the format is. By definition moving it to another format isn't possible.

What they should do is actually manage the format though. And right now they have been mismanaging it for years. :D

[Dunadain]

I'd say EDH is defined more by the presence of the command zone more than a specific banlist or ruleset. If it has a commander, it's commander (unless it's brawl, whatever).

You need clearly defined, universal rules for competition, if I showed up to a cEDH tournament with a French Commander deck, I wouldn't be allowed to enter, and vice versa.

Sure we might think of them as both being part of the commander umbrella, similar to how Modern, Legacy, and Vintage are all part of the eternal format umbrella, but they're still different formats.

To expand on @DirkGently's point, if there was a separate banlist, there would also be people who wanted to play this new format casually.

[yeti1069]

I'm generally talking about cEDH from a Yuriko perspective, where FBP is a fantastic card, but I've seen some other cards that care about stats come up. There are -2/-2 and even some -3/-3 effects floating around. I've run Crippling Fear on and off, for example. I've seen Cut Down. I'm currently running Spinning Darkness.

Stuff like lightning bolt comes up on rare occasions - hence 99% and not 100%.

I don't think I've seen any of those cards played irl (though their usage rates on EDHrec do indicate that someone is playing them - maybe it's just cEDH though, idk).

I play Crippling Fear in a couple of EDH decks outside of cEDH. It's a great card, and getting (somewhat) better as the format speeds up (and we see more impactful creatures at lower mana values, which tend to have lower toughnesses).

Cut Down was pretty good in constructed play, I believe. In cEDH, many of the most-played creatures and top commanders fall under that combined 5 for the card. I haven't played it, because the creatures I've been most worried about don't (such as Kraum).

Yeah. All of this. a 3/4 is HUGE in cEDH. Flying as well. Nadu doesn't use its own life much, but the commander makes it very difficult to pressure life as well. Nadu is free to play Gilded Drake without having to worry about getting hit with the 3/3 flyer afterwards.

I have a really hard time reconciling the "cEDH needs to run more removal because Nadu needs to die immediately" argument with the "it's relevant that Nadu can prevent a 3-damage attack" argument.

I'm not understanding what you're having difficulty with here.
Most creatures in cEDH are relatively small.
There are several decks that want to attack for value.
Pressuring life totals, while not always relevant, can make a real impact.
Nadu blocks nearly every commander in the format, along with most of their creatures as well.
cEDH players don't run nearly enough removal. Look at any selection of non-Yuriko cEDH decks. Most rely on counterspells and chasing their own wincons before something becomes an issue.

Removal with an almost 0 opportunity cost

I wouldn't consider a 1 mana 1/1 with no other abilities to be "almost zero opportunity cost".

In a deck that wants a certain density of 1 mana creatures, the cost of running FBP is pretty low. It's basically trading evasion, for a sort of psuedo-evasion + removal. It's been pretty rare for its lack of actual evasion to be an issue.

It can also be used politically alongside other attackers when known info: if you block my 1-power dude with your 2-toughness dude, I will play this and kill your 2-toughness dude after combat. Or, you play it before combat and force them to make the choice of blocking and losing their creature or letting it through.

How is that political? If it works just the same as in 1v1 magic, I don't see how the word "political" is on the table.

Political in the sense that it is using table talk to accomplish a goal rather than casting/activating a card. Also, it can be used in the same way that I recently used an Orcish Bowmasters: let my guy through, or I kill your creature. Not only that, but if you let it through, I can use this ability to kill a different creature someone else has.

I like to think that cEDH players are generally like the weathervane of appropriate, bannable cards: if the most cutthroat and optimized players are saying it's a problem, it probably is and going to be.

I don't buy it. Flash was not a problem in casual tables and was never going to be. And all the cEDH players I see whining on reddit tend to say that non-flash banned cards shouldn't be banned, paradox engine in particular. I see basically no relation between what cEDH players have a problem with, and what causes problems in normal commander games.

There is some alignment on the Nadu question, but I don't think cEDH players are the lone canary in the coalmine - we've got a coalmine packed full of canaries on every point of the competitive spectrum. If anything I think I see the highest proportion on don't-ban advocates on the cEDH side.

I agree that cEDH players are not a good measuring stick for what should or shouldn't be banned in casual EDH. There are plenty of cEDH cards that are reasonable, or even bad in EDH, and if you're not playing with people hellbent on playing the leanest, most efficient ways to win (within their chosen strategy), a lot of cards are just fine outside of the competitive environment.

I haven't seen Nadu outside of cEDH yet, and I suspect that it will get socially relegated to cEDH-only, the same way so many other cards do. I know that when I sit down with my Tymna+Tevesh Szat cleric tribal deck, a "discussion" regularly ensues as to my sensibilities for bringing a cEDH deck to a casual table, because both individually and jointly, those are viewed as cEDH cards. Playing Dockside in a regular EDH game also often garners similar sentiments, although Dockside has a reasonable argument for banning on both sides of the line. No one is playing Demonic Consultation in casual EDH. I suspect Nadu will go that way as well.

While I don't necessarily think it needs to be banned, even from a cEDH perspective, at least as far as my experience against it has gone, thus far, I will note that at the cEDH event I played this past weekend, it seemed like any table with a Nadu ended up going to time.

[pokken]

I think cedh can be a good measuring stick for casual if the reasons a card is an issue are not power level.

The main thing possibly getting nadu banned is the Active Player Time (tm). That is a problem everywhere in commander.

[yeti1069]

I think cedh can be a good measuring stick for casual if the reasons a card is an issue are not power level.

The main thing possibly getting nadu banned is the Active Player Time (tm). That is a problem everywhere in commander.

Sure, but how many cards have been banned for that compared with how many others are problematic on that axis?

[benjameenbear]

While I personally love this discussion, the past few comments have taken this thread off its intended purpose of discussing new cards lol, myself especially. May I suggest moving all the cEDH comments and Nadu discussion to @darrenhabib's excellent cEDH Nadu decklist thread? That will help make sure this thread stays focused on new card discussion. Thanks! -benjameenbear

[duducrash]

I've some cEDH games in me, but not many. But I feel that if had it a different banlist , it would 100% lose its meaning. The entire thing is supposed to be "push EDH as far as it can", right?

Maybe WOTC/FLGSs should invest in casual game initiatives that arent absurd

[RxPhantom]

Welp, Nadu is blazingly stupid. I'm heading to my LGS this Sunday for the first time since he came out. I can't wait to turn down several games. Ugh.

I also like a few AC cards, but can't bring myself to cross the UB threshold yet.

Give me Bloomburrow!

[Lifeless]

AC is Magic adjacent enough that I think I can pretend they belong. That being said I don't see anything super inspiring quite yet, but a lot more likely than any other UB setting so far.

[Avacyn Believer]

Is AC like the first set in ages that doesn't have commander precons?

[Hermes_]

news out of MagicCon: Amsterdam
https://articles.starcitygames.com/news ... -november/

https://x.com/wizards_magic/status/1806644435528438078

The design philosophy: What would a set simply called Magic: The Gathering look like?

Foundations will set the foundation for Magic's next era as cards from the set will be Standard legal through at least 2029

Foundations has the expected Play and Collector Boosters but we've now added The Beginner Box and Starter Kits, two new products to help teach Magic and help new players build their collection.

They are designed from the ground up to aid the teaching process!

Have old cards coming back like





and new cards:





Foundations will feature 5 Planeswalkers!

[Hermes_]

Taken from https://www.cbr.com/magic-the-gathering ... -previews/

The first announcement came with the first looks at the upcoming horror-themed set Duskmourn: House of Horror. Explaining the theme of the new set, WotC says, "Experience the thrill of overcoming impossible odds and uncover chilling secrets in Magic's first contemporary horror set. 'Who will survive, and what will be left of them?' That's a question both Magic fans and our story protagonists will be asking themselves." The new set takes Planswalkers to a new location, Duskmourn, which is "inspired by the genre of modern horror from the 1980s up through the present day." However, Duskmourn isn't just any old plane, or just some new spot for battles to take place. According to WotC, "it's an infinite haunted house populated by horrors, nightmares, and other terrifying entities."

Sticking with the theme of suspense and surprise, WotC also revealed that the Commander Decks for Duskmourn: House of Horror are bringing back a much-requested feature: Archenemy. This game mode pits three gamers against one. The solo player will have a special set of twisted schemes at their disposal. Duskmourn: House of Horror will be available for pre-order on June 28 and launch on September 27, 2024. Along with these details, plenty of art and cards from the set were revealed.

[Hermes_]

[folding_music]

that excruciator is one of the coolest designs ever! 99/100 cos putting Doomsday in its actual name is too obvious

[5colorsrainbow]

My slasher movie loving heart is loving Duskmourn. Bloomsburrow looks fun but dang i very interested to see more of the worldbuilding.

We are also getting arch-enemy commander. I thought arch-enemy was fun in general so fun to see it back.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Is..is the Duskmourne the Creepypasta Plane?! Can't wait to see The Very Thin Guy, Joe the Murderer, and The Yellow Rooms as cards.

Along with the classic horror tropes and B-move references, I'm also getting a Silent Hill sort of vibe from this as well, albeit watered-down.

[Serenade]

I'm not into horror.
I am into enchantments.
V excited so far!

[PrimevalCommander]

That Enduring Tenacity showcase looks more Pokemon EX than MtG. Also the glimmer ability is just rediculous giving all the tutor and graveyard benefits of a creature, and getting a free return as a harder to remove enchantment just for fun. I hope they keep the power modest on those, but judging by the spoiler card, they won't.

That little beast making kid is pretty strong for blink decks making a 4/4 for 3 mana is a better rate than Blade Splicer

[Mookie]

Duskmourne stuff looks sweet so far. My cube theoretically has an enchantment theme, but it has been hard to support it outside GW - there isn't much support outside those colors. Meanwhile, there is a ton of artifact support in every color combination other than green. Nice to see some more enchantment support to balance that skew - enchantment creatures help a lot, but we don't have many other than the (often fairly weak and aura / devotion-focused) Theros options.

Mixed feelings re: Bloomburrow so far - I'm usually not a big fan of explicit typal themes, and the parasitic nature of the animal types (which generally aren't components of existing decks) are a bit awkward. That said, it does depend on the actual implementation - seems like typal stuff will be mostly for commons / Limited, and higher-rarity stuff may be more open-ended.

Foundations is the replacement for core sets, I guess? Seems comparable to Hearthstone's Classic set. It's nice to have a more approachable way for new players to onboard. Could be a problem for Standard if there are problem cards in the set, but I assume it will be intentionally relatively tame. On the plus side, having a suite of standard effects always-available frees up pressure from normal sets to include hate cards / answers.

• Salvation Swan is a nice Restoration Angel variant. Not saving Brago or other flyers from removal is a concern though. Reminds me a bit of Luminous Broodmoth too.
• The Wandering Rescuer is a sweet take on Clever Concealment and very nice design. Worse against board wipes, but still good.
• Nowhere to Run is an answer to hexproof and ward. We just got Shay Cormac, so nice to see some additional counterplay.
• Fear of Missing Out is a very cheap source of extra combats. Delirium is a theme in my cube, so nice to see more support.
• Cursed Recording is interesting. Copying spells is good, but 20 damage is a pretty crippling downside that may keep it out of spellslinger decks. Could be interesting with something like Blessed Sanctuary or Purity though.
• Overlord of the Hauntwoods looks sweet. Land tokens! Otherwise it seems comparable to Roxanne, Starfall Savant - no damage but more stats, with the optional alternate casting mod as additional upside.
• Nine-Lives Familiar looks great for Teysa - nine sacrifices off a single card is pretty absurd. Doesn't really work with Sun Titan or other recursion effects though.

[CommanderMaster999]

Very very very important note on Nine-Lives Familiar

…… it infinites with MH3's Metastatic Evangel (proliferates when a nontoken ETB's so go from 8 to 9)

So that's actually in a way even better than the Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar dance

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Oh hey we got the types for Bloomburrow and their color affiliations!

Lizards are Rakdos, Otters are Izzet (no surprise here), Frogs are Simic (also no surprise), Squirrels are Golgari (hello Modern Horizons synergy), Birds are Azorious, Mice are Boros, and Rabbits are Selesnya. The unexpected here is that Rats are Dimir and Bats are Orzhov. Ruin-Lurker Bat always felt a bit off, but eh, I'll get used to it.

[Mookie]

Very very very important note on Nine-Lives Familiar

…… it infinites with MH3's Metastatic Evangel (proliferates when a nontoken ETB's so go from 8 to 9)

So that's actually in a way even better than the Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar dance

It returns on end step, so you're still limited to once-per-turn.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

[*]Cursed Recording is interesting. Copying spells is good, but 20 damage is a pretty crippling downside that may keep it out of spellslinger decks. Could be interesting with something like Blessed Sanctuary or Purity though.

Start time-traveling with those Dr Whos and their cards!

[5colorsrainbow]

Is..is the Duskmourne the Creepypasta Plane?! Can't wait to see The Very Thin Guy, Joe the Murderer, and The Yellow Rooms as cards.

Along with the classic horror tropes and B-move references, I'm also getting a Silent Hill sort of vibe from this as well, albeit watered-down.

It is horror from 70's-80's to present day. And there is already slendermen (look under cellarspawn);

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/featu ... -duskmourn

[folding_music]

i need them to show me the lizards
im viashino fan from the back of times don't let me down
i'd normally be with the rabbits but the first rabbit revealed is a cop